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Lead Ammo Ban- TSCA II

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  • acanales
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 51

    Lead Ammo Ban- TSCA II

    To All,
    This morning the Center for Biological Diversity, Project Gutpile, and a variety of other organizations re-filed a new petition to the Environmental Protection Agency.

    While it essentially appears to be the same petition requesting a lead ammunition ban as has been rejected by both the EPA and by a court, plaintiffs are continuing the same line as before about original comments from the Congressional Record.

    Like the last version, it's being filed during an election cycle. This, in turn, makes the petition even more controversial given national politics.

    Perhaps another key difference this time appears to be an official request of the EPA to evaluate the alternative metals being used for ammunition as well as lead.

    Given EPA metals guidance that have been previously published, study of the known toxicities of such metals as copper, tungsten and bismuth may result in additional ammunition restrictions than just besides lead.

    The wisdom of earlier generations of Second Amendment Activists is coming into play up until now, what with language that so far has exempted ammunition from TSCA purview.

    But that language and precedent are not stopping environmental activists from trying to go around the law so as to ban ammunition in general. A TSCA petition, as every one on Calguns has understood before, would address hunting AND target shooting AND self defense uses of ammunition made with the petitioned materials. If EPA were to conclude (as it has in other uses) that copper and tungsten bismuth likewise are toxic metals that can contaminate the environment, there would be very little left to shoot (and don't get me started on depleted uranium...).

    I respectfully request that everyone with an interest in preventing ammunition bans by environmental regulations go and read the CBD press release at:



    Then, I respectfully request that everyone with interest in preventing ammunition bans go and download the petition, then read it, at:



    As demonstrated before, the science behind the claims of lead ammunition being the cause of lead poisoning has serious discrepancies among it's many claims. The case, as demonstrated before at the California Fish & Game Commission, is certainly weak enough for gunowners to totally object until such time as they see the objective proof, including the raw data, behind the claims. Until that time comes to pass, it can be easily said that the case against lead ammunition itself has been heavily overstated at best.

    As always, when gunowners and firearms activists are united on a particular cause, especially important ones such as whether there will be ammunition available to shoot at all, they are a formidable group to deal with in the political and legal arena. I hope that continues to remain true as the various lead and ammunition bans emerge from the efforts of the Usual Suspects.

    Respectfully,

    Anthony Canales
  • #2
    compulsivegunbuyer
    Veteran Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 2512

    Shot down once, will be shot down again. EPA already stated it has no legal authority to regulate ammunition, and it had no interest in pursuing it.

    Comment

    • #3
      CrazyPhuD
      Member
      • Jun 2010
      • 458

      Ban lead allow teflon coated steal....problem solved. (I kid I kid)

      Comment

      • #4
        NytWolf
        Veteran Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 3935

        Originally posted by compulsivegunbuyer
        Shot down once, will be shot down again. EPA already stated it has no legal authority to regulate ammunition, and it had no interest in pursuing it.
        That's not the problem. The problem is, those idiots will keep petitioning until it gets passed.

        Comment

        • #5
          Flopper
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2009
          • 1280

          This has me about as worried as the world ending in December.

          If the only ammo we could shoot were asbestos-coated plutonium filled with trans-fatty acids, we'd still be fine.

          fundamental right is fundamental.
          Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -- L. Neil Smith

          Comment

          • #6
            acanales
            Junior Member
            • Mar 2009
            • 51

            Concern is Warranted....

            Dear Flopper,
            As much as I agree on the fundamental right issue, the problem here is the Toxic Substances Control Act and, ultimately, the Endangered Species Act.

            And there has been a disturbing trend for a while that SCOTUS defers on the majority of lower court rulings in favor of strict environmental regulation.

            Of course, we in California and much of the Rocky Mountain West live in the jurisdiction of the Federal 9th Circuit Court.

            Given that last issue, I think concern is warranted. Especially when the selections for the Supreme Court are going to be a major campaign issue for November.

            Respectfully,

            Anthony Canales

            Comment

            • #7
              CEDaytonaRydr
              Veteran Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 4108

              I can't understand this "ban lead" argument. Where does lead come from? It's mined, from the ground.

              Where do projectiles end up after they've been fired? The ground....

              What's the problem?

              Comment

              • #8
                Flopper
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2009
                • 1280

                Originally posted by acanales
                Dear Flopper,
                As much as I agree on the fundamental right issue, the problem here is the Toxic Substances Control Act and, ultimately, the Endangered Species Act.

                And there has been a disturbing trend for a while that SCOTUS defers on the majority of lower court rulings in favor of strict environmental regulation.

                Of course, we in California and much of the Rocky Mountain West live in the jurisdiction of the Federal 9th Circuit Court.

                Given that last issue, I think concern is warranted. Especially when the selections for the Supreme Court are going to be a major campaign issue for November.

                Respectfully,

                Anthony Canales
                Realistically nothing will come of this--banning firearms projectiles would teach the world the true meaning of uproar.
                Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -- L. Neil Smith

                Comment

                • #9
                  OniKoroshi
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 1321

                  I guess we're left with wolverine made adamantium bullets...

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Bolillo
                    Member
                    • Nov 2011
                    • 451

                    Flopper,

                    Agreed that it's a fundamental right. But this EPA stuff bears watching. While the right to keep, bear, and shoot may not be infringed upon, nothing says that the exercise of such has to be done at a cost you like or can afford. You have the right to free press, as an example, but no right to buy ink at an affordable (to you) price.

                    Vast chunks of CA (condor zone) are already closed to hunting with lead ammo; non-lead replacements (if available in the right caliber) costing 2X more.

                    Note: I'd be happy to see somebody here reference a case law that refutes that press/ink analogy.

                    Meantime, don't underestimate this issue.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      meaty-btz
                      Calguns Addict
                      • Sep 2010
                      • 8980

                      Indeed, this also has a huge impact for "casting yourself". This is a great way to restrict gun usage. It is intentional, not to control lead but to control guns by controlling the ammunition available.
                      ...but their exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level, and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Flopper
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 1280

                        Originally posted by Bolillo
                        Flopper,

                        Agreed that it's a fundamental right. But this EPA stuff bears watching. While the right to keep, bear, and shoot may not be infringed upon, nothing says that the exercise of such has to be done at a cost you like or can afford. You have the right to free press, as an example, but no right to buy ink at an affordable (to you) price.

                        Vast chunks of CA (condor zone) are already closed to hunting with lead ammo; non-lead replacements (if available in the right caliber) costing 2X more.

                        Note: I'd be happy to see somebody here reference a case law that refutes that press/ink analogy.

                        Meantime, don't underestimate this issue.
                        Ezell v. Chicago disagrees.
                        Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -- L. Neil Smith

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          RipVanWinkle
                          Member
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 266

                          Originally posted by Bolillo
                          Flopper,

                          Agreed that it's a fundamental right. But this EPA stuff bears watching. While the right to keep, bear, and shoot may not be infringed upon, nothing says that the exercise of such has to be done at a cost you like or can afford. You have the right to free press, as an example, but no right to buy ink at an affordable (to you) price.

                          Vast chunks of CA (condor zone) are already closed to hunting with lead ammo; non-lead replacements (if available in the right caliber) costing 2X more.

                          Note: I'd be happy to see somebody here reference a case law that refutes that press/ink analogy.

                          Meantime, don't underestimate this issue.
                          Right!

                          This is just another strategy designed to eliminate not just hunting, but all outdoor shooting. Any reports of condors outside the current lead free zone will trigger further extensions of the zone. This is exactly what has been happening. Furthermore copper will become an issue, just as it has in anti-fouling bottom paint for boats. If the anti gun activists don't make progress with the EPA they can always count on the CA Fish & Game Commission to cave in.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Bolillo
                            Member
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 451

                            Originally posted by Flopper
                            Ezell v. Chicago disagrees.
                            I don't see how Ezell could be extended to address the environmental or economic questions about the use of ammunition. In a nutshell, Ezell says, "use of firearms is a fundamental right, therefore Chicago may not ban places where ordinary citizens may exercise that right". Ezell certainly does not say that ordinary citizens must be able to exercise that right within some economic limits. Sure, Ezell argues that Chicago residents shouldn't have to drive way out to the suburbs to use a range, but my own take is that is more along the lines of rights afforded to persons not to have to travel far to exercise their right to vote, for example.

                            Consider the already mentioned condor zone. Look at the economic impact of the CA ban on certain VOC chemicals. Look at the due process issues of having a piece of useable private land be declared "wetlands" and having the owner's value destroyed. Add in the CA MLPA effect on the livelihood and rights of commercial and sport fishermen.

                            Issues surrounding the use of lead ammunition have had more ranges shut down and hunters restricted than what will ever be opened up by Ezell.

                            Please, I want you or somebody with a better legal background than mine to slap me with a rebuttal that does show we have some protection against the loss of our fundamental rights, in a practical way, for so-called environmental reasons. Heller, McDonald, and Ezell are good, but what about when the cost of a round of "approved" centerfire ammo costs as much as a gallon of gas, and must be used only in an isolated and sealed indoor location? Do Heller, McDonald, and Ezell help us there? I want to be wrong about this.
                            Last edited by Bolillo; 03-14-2012, 6:14 AM.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Wherryj
                              I need a LIFE!!
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 11085

                              Originally posted by Flopper
                              This has me about as worried as the world ending in December.

                              If the only ammo we could shoot were asbestos-coated plutonium filled with trans-fatty acids, we'd still be fine.

                              fundamental right is fundamental.
                              "Shirley you can't be serious?" Bullets with trans-fats? Talk about WMDs.
                              "What is a moderate interpretation of the text? Halfway between what it really means and what you'd like it to mean?"
                              -Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice
                              "Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
                              I like my guns like the left likes their voters-"undocumented".

                              Comment

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