Carrying in my business include parking lot or no?

[kwansao]

I think you would need a fence or signs indicating it is private property with no trespassing in order for you to be allowed to do that.

[dieselpower]

I think you would need a fence or signs indicating it is private property with no trespassing in order for you to be allowed to do that.

you'd think thats all you need...

I would think the final consideration came down to how the gate was opened.

Can a customer just walk up and open the gate if they start heading the wrong way; or will they need to stand at the gate and be buzzed in, or have you hit the button to open the gate?

If a random person can open the gate, then i'd say it's "public" access, and you should be wary of carrying outside the building.

If only an employee can open the gate under normal circumstances, I believe it's private enough to be fine.

Note: IANAL, and even if I was, I'm not YOUR lawyer, so my ideas are merely hypothetical and should not be relied upon.

The word to focus on is CUSTOMERS.... If NO ONE is allowed to just randomly walk up to your business, its private property, whether or not someone can easily do that.

If not then whats the test for access, a 3 foot fence? a 10 foot fence? Barbed wire? How fast does the gate need to close...manual, automatic? What about when the gate is open for an employee to enter...during those few seconds in time is my private property now public?

It all boils down to logic. If any member of the general public is allowed into the parking lot...its NOT private property. That includes customers. This is why your front yard can not be considered 100% private property. The public is allowed access even if afterward they are asked to leave or their reason for access was nefarious.

If no one is allowed in that area except employees or guests, then its private property.

Originally Posted by vincewarde
It would seem to me that a warehouse with a fenced parking lot and a closed gate opened only for pickups and delivery would make it 100% legal to carry both in and out of the building - and if I were concerned enough to carry a gun I would definitely make sure my lot had that fence and gate. Two birds with one stone

Not so fast, sometimes that isnt realistic nor permitted by law. Its also a Liberal's viewpoint. Do you think a fence is just as good as a gun? So since a criminal element has NEVER tried to enter your home, that means you don't need a gun? Instead of a gun, maybe you need better locks and a better fence?

once again, I am not a lawyer, just relating what one told me on this same situation.
FTR...
I was in charge of security for a company. I hired a guard service for uniformed night patrol. The cost for armed was over my budget and our insurance company questioned it. One year we had a girl attacked in the parking lot at night. She was ok, her screams alerted people to the area and the 2 guys drove away. They were attempting to pull her into a car. Needless to say, the girls who worked night were very upset and the Owner and I were very concerned with the employees safety. The PD was not to interested and really couldnt care less... thats another story...The general public was not allowed onto the property, but the property was easily accessed both by car and foot. During a meeting on the subject, I asked if I and others could carry firearms both inside and outside of the building. The owner contacted a legal firm, who got in contact with me a week later. We talked several times over the course of a few days and the conclusion was, Yes. Even though the general public had access to the property, they were not allowed there and they were trespassing. They ignored signs and had no legal reason to be there. That means the shipping area, the parking lot and the building itself was all part of the business and employees could openly carry a loaded firearm as per the law on such. I carried concealed (only inside the building) and authorized the shipping and receiving supervisor who was at the loading dock area to LOC as well as my night security supervisor. She didn't even own a gun and I got the Owner to kick in $400 for her to buy a small frame .357. (She was ex-army and knew how to use a firearm, just didn't own one yet) The contracted uniformed guard who walked the property had a 5-D-cell baton.

[Notorious]

Sound like you work for a pretty cool boss who really cares.

[Librarian]

During a meeting on the subject, I asked if I and others could carry firearms both inside and outside of the building. The owner contacted a legal firm, who got in contact with me a week later. We talked several times over the course of a few days and the conclusion was, Yes.

This is the critical step.

There is some risk. Get real legal advice. Then, well-informed, act in your own best interests.

[STR8HEATED]

If i stay on 1.5 acres and my house is located in the middle of the land surrounded by a chainlink fence, can I walk around with an open loaded gun in my yard? Also I am .07 miles from an elementrary school. Not that I would need to but just curious if I could.

[Notorious]

The Safe Schools Act excludes private property like home and schools.

[chris12]

If any member of the general public is allowed into the parking lot...its NOT private property.

False. Private property means the property is owned by a non-government entity.

The public is allowed to freely access lots of private and public property. Their access has nothing to do with the ownership of the property.

If no one is allowed in that area except employees or guests, then its private property.

This would make things like a judges chambers or the White House private property. The concept of access and the concept of ownership are very different, even if the legislature and court has screwed them up.

[Librarian]

False. Private property means the property is owned by a non-government entity.

The public is allowed to freely access lots of private and public property. Their access has nothing to do with the ownership of the property.


This would make things like a judges chambers or the White House private property. The concept of access and the concept of ownership are very different, even if the legislature and court has screwed them up.

Since the law is understandably confusing - now there's an oxymoron! - the usage of the terms public and private are a bit looser here than perhaps leads to greatest accuracy.

Privately owned property may still provide, even be compelled to provide, access to the public. (E. g. access to beaches via court-ordered easements across private property.)

Your average shopping mall is privately owned, but open to the public much of most days. During business hours, much of the mall is a 'public place', while locations such as stock rooms are not 'public places'; when the mall is closed, the mall interior is no longer a 'public place', but the parking lots probably are.

Your front yard is privately owned, but has been treated in court cases as public-access unless fenced and gated, for purposes of a 'public place'.

Todos Sandos park here in Concord is publicly owned, and is a public place. A judge's chambers in the courthouse are publicly owned, but arguably not ordinarily a 'public place'.

[WTSGDYBBR]

When I had my business in Downey I always loaded carry. I would try not to leave the office loaded going to the car but what you cannot see can't hurt anyone.

[chris12]

Since the law is understandably confusing - now there's an oxymoron! - the usage of the terms public and private are a bit looser here than perhaps leads to greatest accuracy.

I agree with your post. I was just objecting to dieselpower's saying that something is not private property if the public has access. Even though the court (see Theseus, others) has decided that private property does not mean private property, I refuse to play their word games. I wouldn't carry on private property that is publicly accessible, due to current case law, but I won't start calling my front yard public property.

The whole set of standards is a mess. Carry in yard w/ no fence is likely bad, carry in garage w/ door closed is easily ok, carry in garage w/ door open isn't much different, carry in car port wouldn't be much different than that, carry on a porch wouldn't be much different than that, but also isn't much different than in a yard under a tarp or even an umbrella. If you want to set the limit at what 'could be closed', what about carry in a house/garage with a broken/missing door? Front yard with an electronic fence and guard dog? How close does the dog have to be?

[Baja Jones]

OK a temporary residence or camp site on public land is accessible to the public. It is in fact public. Yet it is legal to loc lcc (not clear) in your campsite or temporary residence. No fence no yard. How far from your sleeping facility be it a tent or RV is your camp site? I walk my dog around my camp site on public land LOC a couple hundred yards from the RV. The area is heavily patrolled by BLM and Sheriffs. My permanent home is on 10 acres, how big is my temporary home?

[Notorious]

I thought it's the same thing, within your temporary curtilage, that is, you can walk around your campsite which includes your tent and firepit, but not sure if it extends out too far past that. In a temporary home like a RV, it's just in the car while it's parked.

[Baja Jones]

I thought it's the same thing, within your temporary curtilage, that is, you can walk around your campsite which includes your tent and firepit, but not sure if it extends out too far past that. In a temporary home like a RV, it's just in the car while it's parked.

So Tent and fire pit / RV and fire pit. Both are on public land and accessible to the public and in an unlawful to discharge area (there is probably an acronym for that) What is the difference between the camp site and your front yard with no fence and the private parking lot accessible to the public. The camp is more public than either the yard or parking lot. I am not arguing with Notorious I am pointing out the utter stupidity of the California Legislature. The answer is of course California is just like Mexico the law depends on the guy on the other side of the badge, DA's desk or Bench and the way you treat them and how much money you have. It is of course not impossible to pen a law that has no ambiguity. Like the founders: "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed"

From Wikipedia:
In urban properties the location of the curtilage may be evident from the position of fences, wall and similar; within larger properties it may be a matter of some legal debate as to where the private area ends and the 'open fields' start.[1]

[Notorious]

I don't know, maybe F&G guys here can help out?