Dual Residency Help

[Dead*Reckoned]

I am a dual resident of both California and Arizona. During the past couple months I have been in Arizona, I have picked up a couple rifles and pistols.

I am confused about the requirement to register these pistols when I am back in California. Do I have 60 days to register? What if I am visiting california for less than 60 days, do I still have to register my pistols? I would honestly like to avoid registration if possible, but it doesn't bother me so much if I must.

My most important question, could I legally sell one of these handguns in California if it has not been registered?

Thanks for your help

[mrdd]

When did you move to California? Was it on or after January 1, 1998?

[Dead*Reckoned]

No. I was born in california and have only just recently established residency in Arizona, but according to the ATF which specifically addresses my situation, I am legal to purchase handguns in both of my places of residence.

[dustoff31]

Do I have 60 days to register? What if I am visiting california for less than 60 days, do I still have to register my pistols? I would honestly like to avoid registration if possible, but it doesn't bother me so much if I must.

You have up to 60 days to register the pistols after taking them into CA. If you move them back to AZ within 60 days, and then back to CA, the 60 days starts over.

My most important question, could I legally sell one of these handguns in California if it has not been registered?

Yes you can. Selling the pistol through a CA FFL is a legal option in lieu of registering it.

[mrdd]

OK, because the way the law is written, the registration requirement appears to only affect people who establish residency in California on or after that date.

[Dead*Reckoned]

You have up to 60 days to register the pistols after taking them into CA. If you move them back to AZ within 60 days, and then back to CA, the 60 days starts over.



Yes you can. Selling the pistol through a CA FFL is a legal option in lieu of registering it.

Awesome, exactly what I wanted to know. I tried the search, but I couldn't find a clear enough answer to be comfortable with.

OK, because the way the law is written, the registration requirement appears to only affect people who establish residency in California on or after that date.

Interesting, I didn't know that, so are you saying that because I was a resident of California before this date, and the registration requirements only apply to new residents, it may not be necessary to for me to register at all?

[mrdd]

Interesting, I didn't know that, so are you saying that because I was a resident of California before this date, and the registration requirements only apply to new residents, it may not be necessary to for me to register at all?

Here is what the law says:

17000. (a) As used in this part, "personal handgun importer" means
an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(4) The individual is the owner of a handgun.
(5) The individual acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) The individual moved into this state on or after January 1,
1998, as a resident of this state.
(7) The individual intends to possess that handgun within this
state on or after January 1, 1998.
(b) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (a):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when the
individual was discharged from active service in this state.

The law then says:

27560. (a) On or after January 1, 1998, within 60 days of bringing
a handgun into this state, a personal handgun importer shall do one
of the following:
(1) Forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department
of Justice, a report prescribed by the department including
information concerning that individual and a description of the
firearm in question.

So the question is, while you were outside California, were you still considered to be domiciled in California? Did you retain a California driver license?

[jaymz]

As I understand it, if the guns come here with you for less than 60 days, the go back to AZ, no registration required. If they stay more than 60 days, you'd need to register. I could be wrong.

[SanPedroShooter]

Awesome, exactly what I wanted to know. I tried the search, but I couldn't find a clear enough answer to be comfortable with.



Interesting, I didn't know that, so are you saying that because I was a resident of California before this date, and the registration requirements only apply to new residents, it may not be necessary to for me to register at all?

I understand it to mean (and the various statutes seem to back me up) that when you come back into your second home state, you have "moved" into the state again, no matter how many times you come back and forth, as you become a resident of the state you are physically in when you have dual residency. Number 6 is the exemption for people (probably hundreds of thousands, millions?) that brought or bought handguns before registration requirements to effect.

Also, look at number 7... If your handgun is going to be in CA for longer than 60 days, send in the form and the 19 bucks.

[mrdd]

I understand it to mean (and the various statutes seem to back me up) that when you come back into your second home state, you have "moved" into the state again, no matter how many times you come back and forth, as you become a resident of the state you are physically in when you have dual residency. Number 6 is the exemption for people (probably hundreds of thousands, millions?) that brought or bought handguns before registration requirements to effect.

Also, look at number 7... If your handgun is going to be in CA for longer than 60 days, send in the form and the 19 bucks.

Note that PC 17000 (a) (6) references the language in VC 12505 as to what defines "resident". VC 12505 defines residency as a domicile, which is your primary or permanent residence (you can only have one of these). So, I agree that if you are a permanent resident of California, you need to register any new handguns you bring into the state within 60 days.

What is interesting about this is that people who maintain their domicile outside California, but just have a second residence here cannot qualify as a "personal handgun importer", and do not need to register any handguns they bring into the state.

[SanPedroShooter]

Bull. You are a resident of the state you are physically in at the time, for most purposes (Every agency is a little different). Anytime a non-special/non-protected class resident of California brings a handgun into the state for longer than 60 days they must fill out the form and send in the 19 bucks.

That "domicile" business is for tax law. Look at the ATF's residency definition.


Basically you are saying that if claim my domicile for tax purposes is outside CA, but I live here part time, I can possess un-registered hand guns after the registration deadline because I didnt technically move back...? No way. Once again, you become a resident if the state you are in at the time, subject to all the benefits and penalty's. You can't just say, "but my domicile is out of state, therefore the rules dont apply to me.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#state-residency

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?
"The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State...
[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pd

ATF Rul. 80-21

"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example
of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer
months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual
actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the
time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

[Anchors]

You have up to 60 days of being in the state to register, sell (legally), or dispose of the handguns.

SanPedroShooter is also correct about residency. There is also another specific mention of part-time residency in two states relating to military members and college students.

[mrdd]

Bull. You are a resident of the state you are physically in at the time, for most purposes (Every agency is a little different). Anytime a non-special/non-protected class resident of California brings a handgun into the state for longer than 60 days they must fill out the form and send in the 19 bucks.

That "domicile" business is for tax law. Look at the ATF's residency definition.


Basically you are saying that if claim my domicile for tax purposes is outside CA, but I live here part time, I can possess un-registered hand guns after the registration deadline because I didnt technically move back...? No way. Once again, you become a resident if the state you are in at the time, subject to all the benefits and penalty's. You can't just say, "but my domicile is out of state, therefore the rules dont apply to me.

We are discussing state law, not how the ATF determines when a person may purchase a firearm in a state.

According to CA PC 17000, a person is defined as a "personal handgun importer", when they meet a list of criteria. One of these criteria is:

17000. (a) (6) The individual moved into this state on or after January 1,
1998, as a resident of this state.

also

17000. (b) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (a):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of a member of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when the
individual was discharged from active service in this state.

The vehicle code says:

12505. (a) (1) For purposes of this division only and
notwithstanding Section 516, residency shall be determined as a
person's state of domicile. "State of domicile" means the state where
a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and
principal residence and to which he or she has manifested the
intention of returning whenever he or she is absent.

So, you cannot be a "personal handgun importer" if your permanent home is outside of California, even if you have a secondary residence here.

According to PC 27560, only a "personal handgun importer" is required to register items they import to the state.

[drd]

According to PC 27560, only a "personal handgun importer" is required to register items they import to the state.

This is what's so interesting about the law.

Smart legislators wanted to "catch" everyone moving into the state. Naturally, those people who move into the state need to get driver's licenses and they've already written such comprehensive legislation about defining residency for driver's licenses. So, those smart legislators figured all they had to do was tack onto the DMV laws and rules they've already established.

As usual, those smart legislators seem to have mucked it up.

Only personal handgun importers have to register a handgun.
Personal handgun importers are defined in the legislation as those who meet the requirements of getting a driver's license in California.

It's very difficult to read the law as written as having any other requirements regardless of the legislator's original intent.

Absent case-law are we all expected to figure out "what they wanted" vs. "what they said"? Isn't that the very definition of vagueness?

The law is pretty clear on the definition of an importer. Most people bringing a new handgun into the state are probably importers because they're moving here and need to get a driver's license. I've even heard that the DOJ has advised people that the handgun importer stuff is part of getting a driver's license. The DMV even disseminates information about handgun importers in their documents for a new resident.

So, people want to claim that it has to do with the gun being here over 60 days yet the law never talks about the gun. The law only talks about the individual who is a personal handgun importer.

[MasterYong]

When I lived in AZ, the research I did showed that I couldn't actually have dual residency in CA and AZ.

CA considers residency to switch the moment you leave CA, for some reason. It gets confusing enough that no one could tell me: if I go to OR on vacation, am I not a resident of CA for the two weeks I'm in OR?

The gist was: if I live in AZ this week, I'm NOT a resident of CA, even if I own a home here. If I live in CA next week, I am a resident of CA (and IIRC AZ doesn't care at all what CA thinks about your residency. In fact you're not a resident of AZ until you've lived there 6 months, but they have no way to verify this when you apply for an AZDL or buying a gun there, so it's moot and cannot really be enforced). You can literally go back and forth for being a "resident of CA" just by traveling between an AZ home and a CA home every week or every month, etc.

I am not a lawyer. I did, however, do EXTENSIVE research (and started a few CalGuns threads) before I moved there, while I lived there, and after I moved back to make sure I did everything right. I'm reciting this from memory, so there may be some discrepancies here and there. I am not a lawyer, etc etc etc

Your question, however is tough to me. If you were going to stay in CA and keep the guns here then I'd know your answer, because that was what I needed to know when I moved back. In terms of going back and forth, and whether the guns need to be "CA guns" or "AZ guns" or both, I don't know and I wish you the best of luck in finding out.

ETA: one thing I DO remember is, I didn't need to use the personal handgun importer form for guns I bought in CA, took to AZ while I lived there for ~1 year, and then took back to CA. This was because they were already "registered" in CA, they just left for a bit. They're still in the system, and as far as CA is concerned, on paper, they never left.

Looking back, GOD I wish I'd bought more guns while I was in AZ. Prices were way better, and then there's the whole off-roster handgun thing. The only thing I bought was a 92FS from Cabela's that was on sale for some crazy low price like $299 (in 2008!) so i couldn't pass it up. Now, there are 1/2 dozen off-roster handguns I've found that I want but didn't think to get while I lived there.