12020 (a)(2) and Top Shot

[curtisfong]

"Moral hazard"? I don't know what you're referring to.

I can only assume you didn't read any of my posts (or dantodd's, for that matter - since he obviously understands.)

Moral hazard because CLEO and the CA entertainment industry (and politicians/judges for that matter) know they have nothing to fear from gun-control, because exemptions for them are assured.

"Selective enforcement"? Entertainment productions follow specific guidelines to use firearms. You seem to imply that cops choose to ignore the use of otherwise non-legal weapons in California

In my mind, politically motivated statutory exemptions are equivalent to selective enforcement.

Call me stupid if you wish, but I don't understand the points you're trying to make here.

I hardly think you are stupid.

[a1c]

I can only assume you didn't read any of my posts (or dantodd's, for that matter - since he obviously understands.)

Moral hazard because CLEO and the CA entertainment industry know they have nothing to fear from gun-control, because exemptions for them are assured.

Well that's certainly true of the entertainment industry. I suspect however that even California remains easier to deal with when it comes to use firearms as props than most countries that are now attracting production companies with cheaper costs (Canada and Eastern Europe come to mind).

As for LEOs, they also ARE the target of gun control attempts. Surely you're familiar with the litigation going on regarding off-duty carry and department policies, or with the recent cluster*** caused by contradicting opinions regarding the possibility of LEOs to keep an AW when retirement comes.

In my mind, politically motivated statutory exemptions are equivalent to selective enforcement.

Now I get what you were saying. Well, cops enforce the law. Even the least pro-2A cop is not going to shut down a set because some actor in Burbank is pretending to shoot a Barrett M107. So to me, it's not "selective enforcement", since there are statutes in place that make it legal.

I hardly think you are stupid.

Well thank you.

[curtisfong]

As for LEOs, they also ARE the target of gun control attempts. Surely you're familiar with the litigation going on regarding off-duty carry and department policies, or with the recent cluster*** caused by contradicting opinions regarding the possibility of LEOs to keep an AW when retirement comes.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is progress towards solving the moral hazard problem at all, since its pretty much guaranteed that rank and file LEO have absolutely no influence on politics, and even less influence on their superiors, outside of the union.

That said, ANY progress towards equal application of a constitutionally affirmed right is a good thing. Again, I'll try to avoid the phrase "equal protection" since I realize there is very little legal applicability here, only an ideological argument.

Well thank you.

For the record I enjoy your posts and always find them smart, well written and insightful. I'm glad we can come to an understanding, even if we might disagree on the finer points

[Falstaff]

Hmmm, in the same spirit of starting an armored car company to be exempt from the onerous magazine capacity law, I wonder what's the bare minimum to start a "motion picture" company? A business license and a camera? Voila! NFA weapon rental nirvana in California...

[a1c]

Hmmm, in the same spirit of starting an armored car company to be exempt from the onerous magazine capacity law, I wonder what's the bare minimum to start a "motion picture" company? A business license and a camera? Voila! NFA weapon rental nirvana in California...

I believe you need a FFL license (not sure which one) and a class 3 exemption. That's what prop companies have.

[dantodd]

I believe you need a FFL license (not sure which one) and a class 3 exemption. That's what prop companies have.

I think he meant to rent from the prop companies.

[a1c]

I think he meant to rent from the prop companies.

I don't think you need anything in particular except some insurance. But the prop company's gunsmith is going to be the guy in charge of the firearms, and needs to be constantly present.

[cmaynes]

yes it would. Because then the CA legislature would get a butt load of pressure to change the laws. Not only would they lose the daily, but also the income tax and sales tax generate by the employees, like you, who would be paid in and spend your money in NV or AZ.

no I am afraid it wouldnt- in fact, as a weapons sound recordist, I tend to avoid working in CA, not due to its gun laws, but moreso due to its restrictions on explosives, and the hoops I need to go through to be able to do the work in state- things like having a fire truck on hand for instance.

the gun issue is frankly a drop in the bucket compared to other production issues, and producers will indeed shoot out of the state if there is any financial benefit to it- they dont care about the battles we are concerned with, especially in this economy.

The laws are not going to be changed due to some "public awakening"- everytime a Seal Beach shooting occurs, the anti's which is a pretty good sized group numerically find more righteous reason as to ban guns here. They can eventully be convinced, but I would rather see the effort spent on convincing a few judges on the illegalities of the present laws, vs swaying public opinion on the matter..... we just dont have time for that. Our children might, but we need to focusing on the courts of law, not public opinion.

[dantodd]

no I am afraid it wouldnt- in fact, as a weapons sound recordist, I tend to avoid working in CA, not due to its gun laws, but moreso due to its restrictions on explosives, and the hoops I need to go through to be able to do the in state- things like having a fire truck on hand for instance.

the gun issue is frankly a drop in the bucket compared to other production issues, and producers will indeed shoot out of the state if there is any financial benefit to it- they dont care about the battles we are concerned with, especially in this economy.

The laws are not going to be changed due to some "public awakening"- everytime a Seal Beach shooting occurs, the anti's which is a pretty good sized group numerically find more righteous reason as to ban guns here. They can eventully be convinced, but I would rather see the effort spent on convincing a few judges on the illegalities of the present laws, vs swaying public opinion on the matter..... we just dont have time for that. Our children might, but we need to focusing on the courts of law, not public opinion.

You seem to have not understood my post at all.

[twoyellowlabs]

I look at a show like Top Shot or Sons of Guns as a major win for the 2A movement. They are showing that the safe use of firearms is normal. They get mass exposure and a good following showing that the competitors are not what our politicians would lead the general population to believe. If it generates interest in the shooting sports, even better. This is a win win in my book.

[cmaynes]

I don't think you need anything in particular except some insurance. But the prop company's gunsmith is going to be the guy in charge of the firearms, and needs to be constantly present.

Many Armorers are independent. if the have their credentials they can usually rent weapons from any Prop house they have a relationship with.

[cmaynes]

You seem to have not understood my post at all.

I dont think you have an understanding of how guns are handled in the entertainment industry either.


Basically most of the armorers and prop house are FFL's who even do .mil / LEO demo weapons as well as movie guns. They are all class III manufacturers. ISS actually trains the USMC on foreign weapons operation on a regular basis. Places like LMO actually sells "Battalion in a CONEX" packages to outfit armies from crew served weapons down to sporks and shoelaces. And they do movie guns as well.

If we want to cross the rubicon of "equal protection"- we could say that in Nevada, outside of Clark County, it is reasonably easy to get an LEO signoff for most NFA weapons. The same can be said in about 3/4's of the states in the union. The bare faced fact is that we simply have ****ty laws here in CA, and we need to work towards nullifying them through the courts.

[cmaynes]

Great. Give me those guidelines. I'll follow them. Wait, I can't, because I'm not a hollywood production company.

you want to rent some guns like that?

I can set you up- its actually really, really easy....


here is what you need-

a range....

Burro is fine, as is 5 Dogs. I dont like the other ranges about the LA area for reasons mainly due to sound, but I have also done shoots at "A Place to Shoot"

Burro is now charging 2500 a day for a lockout.

5 Dogs, the last time I was there cost about 1200- I love 5 Dogs.... great people and a nice facility.

next up- Insurance.

the range, and the rental place will each require a policy with a Million Dollars coverage for liability. The last time I did this through an NRA insurance vendor (and it is sorta tough getting insurance for gun events) it cost around $1500 per day.

so for our one day shoot we are up to 4k so far-

next we will need some weapons.

ISS and Cinema Weaponry are my favorite places to go to in LA.

on average, the cost for most weapons goes like this- (prices are per weapon)

SMG's- 400 to 600 per 4 day week

Assault Rifles- real ones- not CA ones run about the same- 400 to 600.

Belt Fed Machine Guns- most run between 600 and 1000 per 4 day rental a Minigun costs about 2000.

Barretts and the like run about 400 per rental period.

Supressors are usually about 75 to 100 to rent. There arent a wide variety in LA though- which is another reason I work out of state.- the common calibers are here though.

Ammunition tends towards a buck a round for most calibers- 50 BMG goes for between 6 and 8 bucks a round in most cases

Chalk 40mm rounds go for about 20 bucks a piece.

Armorer fees are about 800 per day, plus mileage and fee for BATF approved vehicle.

Usually you need about 2 to 3 weeks lead time to get everything together, and they wont roll without a deposit and Insurance certificates in hand.

[curtisfong]

So as usual, it comes down to money?

Even worse.

[cmaynes]

So as usual, it comes down to money?

Even worse.

ever price the cost of NFA weapons?

When I take Lahti anti-tank rifles out, the per round cost is around 70 to 80 bucks per round.


At any rate - thats what movie companies (and the game companies) pay.