What is the legal status of an OLL w/o any mag button at all?

[hoffmang]

No centerfire upper, no banned semi auto centerfire rifle.

-Gene

[santacruzstefan]

What if it was a complete centerfire rifle, but just without the mag catch? If the magazine couldn't be attached, then it also couldn't be detached (since "detachable" assumes it was attached in the first place). Not sure how useful this would be, having to hold the magazine just right/ risk misfeeds, but why wouldn't this be legal?

[POLICESTATE]

Still able to insert it into the weapon, hold the mag in place with one hand while operating it with the other and then able to switch mags. I'm going to say at best it's a risky gray area, at worst it's a felony.

YMMV, IANAL

[Librarian]

What if it was a complete centerfire rifle, but just without the mag catch? If the magazine couldn't be attached, then it also couldn't be detached (since "detachable" assumes it was attached in the first place). Not sure how useful this would be, having to hold the magazine just right/ risk misfeeds, but why wouldn't this be legal?

Wrong assumption.

A magazine-locked lower is not capable of accepting a 'detachable' magazine, because the lock forces the user to use a tool to disassemble the magazine from the gun. That remains true even when there is no magazine present.

[santacruzstefan]

Wrong assumption.

A magazine-locked lower is not capable of accepting a 'detachable' magazine, because the lock forces the user to use a tool to disassemble the magazine from the gun. That remains true even when there is no magazine present.

I understand, but a rifle without a mag catch also can't accept a detachable magazine, right?

[Purple K]

Without a magazine catch/spring/button it's not even a complete lower, it's just parts. Without an upper attached it's not even a complete rifle. Parts is parts.

[Librarian]

If a mag could be inserted and somehow used, and then removed without using a tool, yes, it can accept a 'detachable' magazine.

If the magazine cannot be used to feed cartridges (because of a magazine latching problem), then the rifle/lower is somehow broken.

That particular condition might be legally benign. Other 'broken' states, such as multiple rounds fired from a semi-auto with only one activation of the trigger mechanism, are not benign.

[bwiese]

There seems to be mixups above, with some people answering the right answer for wrong question.. so, clarifying the permutations:

• for AR architecture, an OLL lower receiver - with any or all relevant 12276.1 PC 'features'
  (pistol grip, telestock/folder stock, etc.) is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire since no
  upper is attached (and arguable not a rifle).
  
  The presence or absence of the mag catch, BulletButton maglock or related inserted magazine
  is irrelevant in this particular instance.
  .
• An assembled OLL semiautomatic centerfire rifle (i.e., this upper is attached to lower) with PC
  12276.1 'characteristic features' present (pistol grip, telestock, flash hider, etc.) MUST have
  a maglock a la BulletButton installed.
  
  If such a rifle has NO mag catch installed, it is still entirely capable of accepting a 'detachable
  magazine' per the 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory definition, and the gun will even be somewhat
  operational. Don't be stupid and do this.
  
  Additionally, this configuration cannot use over-10-round magazines.
  .
• An assembled "featureless" semauto centerfire rifle (no 12276.1PC 'evil features' installed) can
  have an ordinary mag catch or no mag catch at all. These configurations can use an over-10
  round magazine - unless a maglock were installed (!!)
  .
• Rimfire rifles are generally not subject to the above.... however:
  
  VERY IMPORTANT: if your rimfire rifle...
  .
  • uses a standard 5.56/223 (and not 22LR) barrel;
  • no other mods besides a Ciener-style conversion (i.e, new special 22LR bolt carrier + 22LR mags);
  • has no BulletButton-style maglock;
    .
  
  ... there is substantial risk that when the rimfire bolt assembly is removed, the gun may be regardable
  as a 'Broken AW' (and not a disassembled 22LR).
  
  There's already been losing court drama on "broken gun still is an AW" with bolt carrier removed, so don't
  push the limits.
  
  Disassembly/reassembly of this style rimfire rifle should involve taking the upper off first before removing
  the 22LR conversion bolt assembly. Reassembly is the reverse, and the 22LR bolt assembly should be installed in
  the upper before attaching the upper to the lower receiver. SEQUENCY IS IMPORTANT.
  
  The above warning is not applicable for custom 22LR rimfire uppers that are readily determinable to be rimfire only.
  
  
  .

.

[killmime1234]

As it has been stated above in many ways, if it has a centerfire upper and "evil" features, it would be illegal.

Assuming we're talking about a firearm with evil features and a centerfire upper:

If you can remove the magazine from the receiver without a tool, regardless of your own definition of "detachable," it is illegal.

If you can remove the magazine from the receiver without a tool, regardless of whether or not it has a mechanism to retain it in the receiver, it is illegal.

[Munk]

I believe the summary is: Check the flowchart. If it's not addressed, it's not relevant.

[pacrimguru]

There seems to be mixups above, with some people answering the right answer for wrong question.. so, clarifying the permutations:

• for AR architecture, an OLL lower receiver - with any or all relevant 12276.1 PC 'features'
  (pistol grip, telestock/folder stock, etc.) is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire since no
  upper is attached (and arguable not a rifle).
  
  The presence or absence of the mag catch, BulletButton maglock or related inserted magazine
  is irrelevant in this particular instance.
  .
• An assembled OLL semiautomatic centerfire rifle (i.e., this upper is attached to lower) with PC
  12276.1 'characteristic features' present (pistol grip, telestock, flash hider, etc.) MUST have
  a maglock a la BulletButton installed.
  
  If such a rifle has NO mag catch installed, it is still entirely capable of accepting a 'detachable
  magazine' per the 11 CCR 5469(a) regulatory definition, and the gun will even be somewhat
  operational. Don't be stupid and do this.
  
  Additionally, this configuration cannot use over-10-round magazines.
  .
• An assembled "featureless" semauto centerfire rifle (no 12276.1PC 'evil features' installed) can
  have an ordinary mag catch or no mag catch at all. These configurations can use an over-10
  round magazine - unless a maglock were installed (!!)
  .
• Rimfire rifles are generally not subject to the above.... however:
  
  VERY IMPORTANT: if your rimfire rifle...
  .
  • uses a standard 5.56/223 (and not 22LR) barrel;
  • no other mods besides a Ciener-style conversion (i.e, new special 22LR bolt carrier + 22LR mags);
  • has no BulletButton-style maglock;
    .
  
  ... there is substantial risk that when the rimfire bolt assembly is removed, the gun may be regardable
  as a 'Broken AW' (and not a disassembled 22LR).
  
  There's already been losing court drama on "broken gun still is an AW" with bolt carrier removed, so don't
  push the limits.
  
  Disassembly/reassembly of this style rimfire rifle should involve taking the upper off first before removing
  the 22LR conversion bolt assembly. Reassembly is the reverse, and the 22LR bolt assembly should be installed in
  the upper before attaching the upper to the lower receiver. SEQUENCY IS IMPORTANT.
  
  The above warning is not applicable for custom 22LR rimfire uppers that are readily determinable to be rimfire only.
  
  
  .

.

fantastic, thank you.