Transporting Handguns In Vehicle Trunk with a “Pass Through”

[oni.dori]

IANAL, but you said it was a LOCKING pass through, correct?

Well, a locked container is all that is required, and a lock is a lock, isn't it?

[Cokebottle]

Agreed that locked is locked.
If the passthrough requires a key or combination, it's locked.

Yes, some point to the issue of accessibility, but the PC does not say anything about accessibility.
Locked briefcase or pistol case on the seat next to you is legal.
Unloaded open carry with a loaded magazine on the seat next to you is legal outside of a GFSZ.
Accessibility is not a legal concern.
Meeting the definition of "Secure, locked container" is.


But yes... need to keep in mind what your legal status is in the event the trunk needs to be opened.

[Munk]

Some cars, I would be comfortable with, such as the newer Corolla.
The passthrough release is in the trunk... not in the passenger compartment. That would certainly qualify as "locked" as there is no access from the passenger compartment (absent an electric or cable trunk lid popper).

But the main issue is...

If you are relying on your trunk to be the "locked container" you still have issues at both ends of the trip:

12026.1 and 12026.2 still require a locked container when the gun is not being transported under the motive power of the vehicle. You can not legally open your trunk, retrieve a handgun that is in a range bag or gun rug, and carry it across the parking lot to the range, or from your curb at home to your front door.

Also, you get a flat tire.
You are in front of a school.
You can't open your trunk without violating 626.9.

I believe that at the parking lot, you are at a destination; assuming the parking lot is entirely within the control of the shooting establishment, like Angeles, or (damn I miss it) the San Gabriel Valley Gun Club used to be. If you are there, you're no longer transporting, but engaged in the use of. The same applies to your home or where you park at home.

This falls apart if you're parking on the street, or in a shared lot, because then you're not really at either destination yet.

The flat tire issue is a nuisance. I would call AAA, then have my car towed without opening the trunk just to avoid the issue. However, I feel that this would be a case of extenuating circumstances that would preclude any significant repercussions. The attempt was made in good faith to transport the firearm in compliance with the law. There is no Mens Rea, no disregard for the law, nor ignorance since you were in attempted compliance, which is another mitigating factor.


Mind you, I know this doesn't preclude an overzealous or abusive officer or DA from pressing the charge, but I feel it would fall apart in court.

[Cokebottle]

The parking lot issue is touchy.
Refer to Theseus's case.
He was on private property... on a private sidewalk, having a smoke on a bench outside of a laundromat.
The property was clearly marked as being private.

He was still convicted under 626.9, and it didn't fall apart in court.

In this case, we're talking about a 12025 violation, and public access has always been clearly defined.
And yes, it could depend upon the way the lot is set up. I haven't been to Angeles. Burro? Likely no issue as the private ranges are practically a part of the parking area.
But OC Indoor... it's simply a parking lot in a business park. Whether you are able to park right in front of the door, or get stuck next door, management does not have the right to prohibit someone from parking there. Same goes for most indoor ranges, and pretty much every gun shop.

Unless there's a fence and a gate, I would not take any chances playing with 12025.

[Munk]

The parking lot issue is touchy.
Refer to Theseus's case.
He was on private property... on a private sidewalk, having a smoke on a bench outside of a laundromat.
The property was clearly marked as being private.

He was still convicted under 626.9, and it didn't fall apart in court.

In this case, we're talking about a 12025 violation, and public access has always been clearly defined.
And yes, it could depend upon the way the lot is set up. I haven't been to Angeles. Burro? Likely no issue as the private ranges are practically a part of the parking area.
But OC Indoor... it's simply a parking lot in a business park. Whether you are able to park right in front of the door, or get stuck next door, management does not have the right to prohibit someone from parking there. Same goes for most indoor ranges, and pretty much every gun shop.

Unless there's a fence and a gate, I would not take any chances playing with 12025.

Yeah, the theseus issues is why i figure an openly accessible or shared lot is a no-go, because you have to transport from that public place to the range. If it's a range-exclusive and controllable lot, then I would consider you good to go. If the lot is, as you said, a lot in a business park (like so very many indoor ranges), or streetside then you have to have your firearm locked up.

Although, I guess if you had an LTC, you wouldn't have to worry so much. Would "Convenience when travelling to the range" count as good cause? lol.

[Cokebottle]

Yeah, the theseus issues is why i figure an openly accessible or shared lot is a no-go, because you have to transport from that public place to the range. If it's a range-exclusive and controllable lot, then I would consider you good to go. If the lot is, as you said, a lot in a business park (like so very many indoor ranges), or streetside then you have to have your firearm locked up.

Exactly.

I mean jeez... it's not an issue that is going to impact 90% of us. I must have carried illegally for 10 years before I actually read the PC.

I was so used to just tossing the bag into the trunk of the car that I never gave it a 2nd thought when I moved to a wagon and finally pickups/SUVs. I'd just toss it in the back where it was out of reach.
In the pickup, I'd put it under the back seat.

Although, I guess if you had an LTC, you wouldn't have to worry so much. Would "Convenience when travelling to the range" count as good cause? lol.

Some counties? I'm sure it would fly

[bwiese]

Chisel:


Yes a traditional car trunk is considered a locked container (that is, not needing another locked container in there to store the gun).

And yes, the above discussions indicate that if the 'locked container' status fails, numerous legal issues could occur.

Note that today many modern car trunks are accompanied by either or both

• flow-thru tilt-down rear seats that can activate just by user action (say, a latch but not a key)
  .
• trunk release pushbutton on the dash

These modern configurations may incur risk of not being considered a secure locked container (we really don't know more, this hasn't been litigated - but this is an area I'd be cautious of... you have an argument, the prosecution can have an argument).

For the dash pushbutton release, critical nuances might include whether or not the trunk pops open if the key must be in the ignition when the dash trunk release pushbutton is hit.

Think: the approximate topological equivalent of such a trunk is a Pelican rifle case that's locked but has a big hole/flap on front with a simple tab latch. That ain't gonna fly.

Now, likely very very very few people (cops, DAs, investigators) will likely think of this this deeply. 99% of the time being in trunk will past muster and/or get the case thrown.... it's rather low on the radar. But if they really want a bust, they're gonna think more deeply. The absolute risk is definitely more than nonzero, and there is no case law I know of on this. An urban judge in a busy metro courtroom can easily go sideways on this and who knows what the appeals chain does (look at People v. Rooney on rifle overall length measurement w/folder stock, and how that went sideways).

Here's a specific example: I just acquired a new '11 Dodge Challenger. I need to physically modify the rear seats with a few crossbars running the length of the seatbacks etc. in the trunk area - such that these seats can't fold down. (I don't think there's a lock involved on these.) I'll also be replacing the pushbutton trunk release button with a key lock switch on the dash. This way I am "cleaner than Caesar's wife". Remember that besides ordinary handguns and rifles I also transport registered 12276.1/12276PC semiauto centerfire rifles and illegal 12280 transport has its own drama.

[The button on the electronic 'key' I am not worried about as it's called a 'key', and the manual calls what it addresses a 'lock system', if I recall the phrase correctly.]

It's all about being 'locked" and "secure". Ease/convenience doesn't really factor in.

Another related worry: the cross-bed toolboxes common on today's pickup trucks also may run the risk of being considered as an undefined 'utility box' - which (along with glove boxes) is not legal for gun storage [unless the gun was inside its own locked container inside].

While the likely legislative intent of the term 'utility box' probably meant another convenience storage compartment in the driver's reach and is similar in concept/function to the glove box (i.e. the utility compartment is is likely the storage bolster between driver & passenger seat), we again really don't know.

[In fact I believe 7-8 years ago NRA attorney Chuck Michel wrote a memo on this general worry.]

There's simply no guarantee a court may interpret the scope of this name properly or how broadly they extend it, as it is undefined in statute and regulation.

In particular, the common truck cross-bed toolboxes by WeatherGard/ Knaack are in fact specifically called 'utility boxes' on their label plates by the manufacturers. Given this, I transport my handguns and certain registered 12276/12276.1PC semiauto centerfire rifles within my truck toolbox in their own separate locked containers within.

[chiselchst]

bweise,

Thanks much for the detailed response. I much better understand the law now.

I'll continue the use of a locked container inside my trunk (having a trunk release and pass through I might forget to lock). Not going to be a test case here...I've never been one to "Poke the bear" as cokebottle so aptly put it...

Thanks again!

Chisel:


Yes a traditional car trunk is considered a locked container (that is, not needing another locked container in there to store the gun).

And yes, the above discussions indicate that if the 'locked container' status fails, numerous legal issues could occur.

Note that today many modern car trunks are accompanied by either or both

• flow-thru tilt-down rear seats that can activate just by user action (say, a latch but not a key)
  .
• trunk release pushbutton on the dash

These modern configurations may incur risk of not being considered a secure locked container (we really don't know more, this hasn't been litigated - but this is an area I'd be cautious of... you have an argument, the prosecution can have an argument).

For the dash pushbutton release, critical nuances might include whether or not the trunk pops open if the key must be in the ignition when the dash trunk release pushbutton is hit.

Think: the approximate topological equivalent of such a trunk is a Pelican rifle case that's locked but has a big hole/flap on front with a simple tab latch. That ain't gonna fly.

Now, likely very very very few people (cops, DAs, investigators) will likely think of this this deeply. 99% of the time being in trunk will past muster and/or get the case thrown.... it's rather low on the radar. But if they really want a bust, they're gonna think more deeply. The absolute risk is definitely more than nonzero, and there is no case law I know of on this. An urban judge in a busy metro courtroom can easily go sideways on this and who knows what the appeals chain does (look at People v. Rooney on rifle overall length measurement w/folder stock, and how that went sideways).

Here's a specific example: I just acquired a new '11 Dodge Challenger. I need to physically modify the rear seats with a few crossbars running the length of the seatbacks etc. in the trunk area - such that these seats can't fold down. (I don't think there's a lock involved on these.) I'll also be replacing the pushbutton trunk release button with a key lock switch on the dash. This way I am "cleaner than Caesar's wife". Remember that besides ordinary handguns and rifles I also transport registered 12276.1/12276PC semiauto centerfire rifles and illegal 12280 transport has its own drama.

[The button on the electronic 'key' I am not worried about as it's called a 'key', and the manual calls what it addresses a 'lock system', if I recall the phrase correctly.]

It's all about being 'locked" and "secure". Ease/convenience doesn't really factor in.

Another related worry: the cross-bed toolboxes common on today's pickup trucks also may run the risk of being considered as an undefined 'utility box' - which (along with glove boxes) is not legal for gun storage [unless the gun was inside its own locked container inside].

While the likely legislative intent of the term 'utility box' probably meant another convenience storage compartment in the driver's reach and is similar in concept/function to the glove box (i.e. the utility compartment is is likely the storage bolster between driver & passenger seat), we again really don't know.

[In fact I believe 7-8 years ago NRA attorney Chuck Michel wrote a memo on this general worry.]

There's simply no guarantee a court may interpret the scope of this name properly or how broadly they extend it, as it is undefined in statute and regulation.

In particular, the common truck cross-bed toolboxes by WeatherGard/ Knaack are in fact specifically called 'utility boxes' on their label plates by the manufacturers. Given this, I transport my handguns and certain registered 12276/12276.1PC semiauto centerfire rifles within my truck toolbox in their own separate locked containers within.

[Munk]

Note that today many modern car trunks are accompanied by either or both
flow-thru tilt-down rear seats that can activate just by user action (say, a latch but not a key)
.
trunk release pushbutton on the dash

This is why I consider myself somewhat fortunate in that my clunker can disable both of these features. On the back of the seats, there is a lever I can switch over that will disable the pushbuttons that are accessible from the car; this kills the flowthrough aspect. Inside my trunk there is a toggle switch which disables all electronic methods of opening the trunk. When it's switched, i can ONLY use my physical key to unlock it. (Even my key fob is disabled for this).

I'd be somewhat surprised if one of these situations ever went to trial; though i'd be less surprised if it was something involving an SUV or hatchback (no trunk), or a pickup truck with a utility box or Tonneau cover. The SUV situation seems more likely to me.

[vincewarde]

This is what I worry about

<<<<<(b)In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. >>>>>

So, if I read this right:

1) I have to justify any and all stops I might make while transporting my handgun between the range and my home.

2) I can't keep a gun in my vehicle "just in case" things go bad while I am away from home.

[Librarian]

<<<<<(b)In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. >>>>>

So, if I read this right:

1) I have to justify any and all stops I might make while transporting my handgun between the range and my home.

2) I can't keep a gun in my vehicle "just in case" things go bad while I am away from home.

No.

12026.2 is written for transport of a concealable firearm NOT in a vehicle.

[Cokebottle]

<<<<<(b)In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. >>>>>

So, if I read this right:

1) I have to justify any and all stops I might make while transporting my handgun between the range and my home.

2) I can't keep a gun in my vehicle "just in case" things go bad while I am away from home.

Librarian beat me to it... but 12026.1 covers you when in a vehicle.
No destination requirement.

I posted the full PC in answer to someone who didn't want to leave their (locked) gun in their car when they stop at 7-11 on the way home from the range... It appears that under 12026.2 locked, unloaded, concealed carry is NOT legal for normal everyday foot/bicycle travel.

Yes, 12026.1 covers a "trunk gun"

[7x57]

Is it entirely clear that the trunk has to be a "locked container"?

(1)The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

The 'or' seems to distinguish the trunk from other containers, though it still specifies "locked in the trunk." Even if valid, I'm not sure that's a distinction that makes a difference, given we still have the locked requirement. Still, it struck me as slightly odd that it said "or a locked container", not "or other locked container".

7x57

[HisDivineShadow]

People who have a BMW from 2004 onward should be careful. Not only do they typically have a unlockable pass through "ski" flap in the back seat, but the "comfort access" system which uses the key fob will allow the person with the key to open the trunk with the key fob still in their pocket and just a simple touch of the trunk release latch on the trunk lid. The car senses the proximity of the key fob and allows the trunk to be opened when the latch is depressed.

There is also a trunk release button on the dash or down by the driver's left leg by the hood release, depending on the model and year.

[mrdd]

People who have a BMW from 2004 onward should be careful. Not only do they typically have a unlockable pass through "ski" flap in the back seat, but the "comfort access" system which uses the key fob will allow the person with the key to open the trunk with the key fob still in their pocket and just a simple touch of the trunk release latch on the trunk lid. The car senses the proximity of the key fob and allows the trunk to be opened when the latch is depressed.

There is also a trunk release button on the dash or down by the driver's left leg by the hood release, depending on the model and year.

I agree. A regular remote which requires pushing a button to pop the trunk would likely be considered a "key", but a proximity based remote which allows others to access the trunk would be problematic.