Hand deliver a firearm to an FFL outside the state?

[Maestro Pistolero]

. . . can you? Or must it be shipped?

Someone in CA has a lawfully owned firearm and wishes to sell it to a buyer in NV. It must go through the NV FFL, but must it be shipped, or may it be handed to the NV FFL by the CA seller in person?

[M. D. Van Norman]

[Maestro Pistolero]

Here’s an even better question. What if the buyer transports the firearm to the FFL?

Unless it is possible to loan a firearm to an out of state resident., I'm thinking that would be a no, as it is an undocumented transfer to a person in another state.

[CHS]

Someone in CA has a lawfully owned firearm and wishes to sell it to a buyer in NV. It must go through the NV FFL, but must it be shipped, or may it be handed to the NV FFL by the CA seller in person?

There are no laws against that, assuming that it's legal for you to transport the firearm in the state where you are selling it.

I've personally handled a transfer where the seller was a NV resident and showed up with his CA friend to do a "ppt", which according to CA law isn't actually a PPT. We just got a copy of the sellers ID, received the firearm, and then transferred it to the seller as a normal FFL transfer. Should be the same in almost any other state.

[paul0660]

I'm thinking that would be a no, as it is an undocumented transfer to a person in another state.

It is a loan, and just as legal as the "transfer" to the UPS counterperson.

[CHS]

I'm thinking that would be a no, as it is an undocumented transfer to a person in another state.

That should also be legal, assuming that the buyer received the firearm as a lawful loan (good for up to 30 days).

Example:

I loan a pistol to a buddy in AZ. He REALLY likes it. I say, well tell you what, $400 and it's yours. He agrees and then transports it to a dealer in AZ to handle the transfer. I fax the dealer a copy of my ID. My buddy then pays me online or something.

Legal issues? I see none. It's still just a loan until the FFL handles the transfer and my buddy pays me for the gun.

[bwiese]

. . . can you? Or must it be shipped?

Someone in CA has a lawfully owned firearm and wishes to sell it to
a buyer in NV. It must go through the NV FFL, but must it be shipped,
or may it be handed to the NV FFL by the CA seller in person?

There's nothing restricting this - certainly not in NV law nor Fed law.

In fact FFLs actually exist in part to facilitate such transfers!

(I recall there may be certain limits on FFL->FFL transfers but that
is a wholly separate matter.)

This in fact is a specific method for a Californian to sell his 12276/12276.1PC registered & controlled
semiauto rifle outside CA without using the intermediating services of a CA FFL w/DOJ AW permit.
[You cannot ship such a rifle out of CA without using the services of such a CA FFL.]

[kemasa]

It can be hand delivered to the FFL in NV, but that assumes that the NV FFL finds that acceptable. It is legal, but the FFL may or may not find it acceptable to them, so you need to ask first.

[Maestro Pistolero]

Thanks everyone. I have an FFL who will receive it from the owner.

[Librarian]

That should also be legal, assuming that the buyer received the firearm as a lawful loan (good for up to 30 days).

Example:

I loan a pistol to a buddy in AZ. He REALLY likes it. I say, well tell you what, $400 and it's yours. He agrees and then transports it to a dealer in AZ to handle the transfer. I fax the dealer a copy of my ID. My buddy then pays me online or something.

Legal issues? I see none. It's still just a loan until the FFL handles the transfer and my buddy pays me for the gun.

I don't think that flies. I read it as:

As a CA resident, you could, in CA, loan him the gun to use in CA.

As a CA resident you could, in NV, loan him the gun to use in NV.

BUT as a CA resident, you CANNOT loan him the gun CA and then he takes it back to NV, nor can you lend it to him in NV and you go back to CA without it.

One of you leaving the state and the owner not having possession turns it into an interstate transfer, and needs the FFL right then.

See the US Code in http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...rms_Interstate

[GaryV]

That should also be legal, assuming that the buyer received the firearm as a lawful loan (good for up to 30 days).

Example:

I loan a pistol to a buddy in AZ. He REALLY likes it. I say, well tell you what, $400 and it's yours. He agrees and then transports it to a dealer in AZ to handle the transfer. I fax the dealer a copy of my ID. My buddy then pays me online or something.

Legal issues? I see none. It's still just a loan until the FFL handles the transfer and my buddy pays me for the gun.

I'd say that, given the language of the '68 GCA, even the loan would be illegal. California law might allow such transfers, but federal law doesn't. A loan, unless you are immediately present at all times, is a transfer by federal standards, and the law specifically forbids any transfer to a non-resident of your state without going through an FFL in the recipient's state.

[CHS]

See the US Code in http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...rms_Interstate

I don't think that's accurate:

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer,'
sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person
(other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a
corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that
this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made
to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by
intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted
to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary
use for lawful sporting purposes;

The loan to any person for temporary use for lawful "sporting purposes".

I read that to say that it's illegal for me to transfer a firearm to my buddy in AZ without using an FFL, unless the transfer is a "loan ... for temporary ... lawful sporting purposes".

*IF* after that loan, he would like to purchase that firearm from me, and I do not accept any money for it yet, what's to stop him from going to an FFL to facilitate the now non-exempt interstate SALE of the firearm?

[Librarian]

I think it's questionable to convert a non-FFL-involved loan into a now-we-need-an-FFL transfer. It seems to me your friend has to return it to you from the loan so you can begin a different transaction.

In the case you suggest above, I think you cannot loan it to your buddy in AZ unless you, too, are in AZ and remain there for the period of the loan.

If you don't do that, what external characteristics distinguish 'loan' from 'transfer'?

[CHS]

If you don't do that, what external characteristics distinguish 'loan' from 'transfer'?

It would be the "temporary use" clause.

A week would seem to me to be a "temporary use", while a year would probably fall into "transfer" territory

I'm sure reality is somewhere between the two.

[guns_and_labs]

I think it's questionable to convert a non-FFL-involved loan into a now-we-need-an-FFL transfer. It seems to me your friend has to return it to you from the loan so you can begin a different transaction.

In the case you suggest above, I think you cannot loan it to your buddy in AZ unless you, too, are in AZ and remain there for the period of the loan.

If you don't do that, what external characteristics distinguish 'loan' from 'transfer'?

No, you aren't "converting" it. The loan is legal, agreed? The moment there is a sale, you need an FFL, agreed?

However, Federal law is fairly flexible on when the sale occurs on an interstate transaction. Looking at the commerce code, the sale essentially occurs when there is a contractual commitment. Some of the stuff I ship is sold when it leaves my dock. Some of it is sold when it arrives at the buyers dock. Some of it isn't sold until it is delivered, set up, and accepted by the buyer - which may be months after it's installed.

Therefore, in the case where the buddy borrows the firearm, I would argue the sale occurs when the buddy says, "I'll take it", which can be at the FFL over the cellphone.