access to police training facilities: a new front in RKBA?

[creekside]

Police training facilities are paid for by taxpayer dollars. As tacobandit pointed out in another thread, many agencies have comprehensive training facilities, not just ranges and instructors but full-fledged simulators.

Why can't the public get access to the majority of these facilities?

One would think that it is in the public interest for law-abiding citizens to have access to technology and equipment that would allow them to do better in saving their lives under stressful conditions.

San Francisco PD has two firing ranges: airport and Lake Merced. Not only are these police only, but the LTC process established by San Francisco (PDF) charges $1722 for initial range qualification. That's one thousand seven hundred twenty-two dollars.

San Jose State University PD has a firing range originally intended for Administration of Justice students. Now police only.

Conversely, if anyone is aware of any publicly owned facilities, especially in Northern California, which do allow public access -- please do share.

[LHC30]

Probably because of the cost per student (LE or civ) of running the range. They have enough in their budget to run the ranges/Simulators for the number of officers they need to train by law, but to let others above and beyond that number will cost money they don't have.

probably a few more reasons, but I'm calling it a night for now.

[SwissFluCase]

It would depend how busy the range is. If it is packed all of the time it would seem reasonable to keep it private. Quite frankly I would prefer to see the ranges used more often by the officers.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

[Forewarned]

UC Berkeley has an indoor shooting range under Edwards track. They mostly use it for UC Police qualification and ROTC.

[creekside]

It would depend how busy the range is. If it is packed all of the time it would seem reasonable to keep it private. Quite frankly I would prefer to see the ranges used more often by the officers.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

I completely agree that officers should be using the range as much as departmental budgets allow, and then encouraged to use it more on their own. However, I was under the impression that personnel costs and ammunition were the limiting factors, not actual range availability time.

Saving on ammunition is another huge benefit of simulators.

Also, to borrow an argument from LCAV, even if one life is saved, isn't it worth it?

[FastFinger]

Just add that Rio Hondo Community College in Whittier has a nice range. Although it's not open to the public, but the public can enroll in their police academy firearm courses. The training is pretty good, you may use your own handgun or their S&W revolvers, and they supply all the ammo - and you go through a lot of it! About $250 for a 13 sessions.

[Crom]

It maybe best to take the issue up with your city council and work through those channels. Make a case for shared access in the interest of the public good. Gun ranges are not as common as say gyms.

I don't think we have a "right" to use the range equipment as a member of the public so I don't see a lawsuit working there. We certainly have rights to know how tax payer money is being used for public purposes though.

[1911su16b870]

It is incredibly expensive to open and operate a range. I do not think people would pay the "fair" rate us use PD ranges.

[The Shadow]

I have it on good authority that the Orange county Sheriff's department has allowed private companies to use their facilities in the past. That includes Armored car, as well as private security companies.

I guess that if you have enough money to get their attention, you too can utilize their facilities for training.

So here's a thought, if the members of Calguns want to take up a collection and buy some time at a police facility for the purpose of training and putting rounds down range, you should probably do some research and see what kind of money gets their attention. In the meantime, just hit your local range and be happy you have that behind the iron curtain that is Kalyfornya.

I think I'll go to Bass Pro now and use their range.

[Doheny]

I have it on good authority that the Orange county Sheriff's department has allowed private companies to use their facilities in the past. That includes Armored car, as well as private security companies.

A portion of OCSD's range is open to the public. I've never shot there, but I hear it's nice.

The range store is also open to the public, but they won't sell you restricted items (hi-caps, etc.) unless you're a LEO.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM636J_Orange_County_Sheriffs_Department_Law_Enforcement_and_Public_Pistol_Range__Orange_CA

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[The Shadow]

A porition of OCSD's range is open to the public. I've never shot there, but I hear it's nice.

The range store is also open to the public, but they won't sell you restricted items (hi-caps, etc.) unless you're a LEO.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM636J_Orange_County_Sheriffs_Department_Law_Enforcement_and_Public_Pistol_Range__Orange_CA

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Awesome ! I've driven by the place in the past, but I never thought I had a reason to go there. This information changes that. Thanks.

EDIT: For anyone interested, the address is 1900 W. Katella, Orange, Ca. The phone number is (714)568-9391

[edwardm]

Police training facilities are paid for by taxpayer dollars. As tacobandit pointed out in another thread, many agencies have comprehensive training facilities, not just ranges and instructors but full-fledged simulators.

San Francisco PD has two firing ranges: airport and Lake Merced. Not only are these police only, but the LTC process established by San Francisco (PDF) charges $1722 for initial range qualification. That's one thousand seven hundred twenty-two dollars.

Conversely, if anyone is aware of any publicly owned facilities, especially in Northern California, which do allow public access -- please do share.

SFPD opens up their range for the Bob Chow Memorial Pistol Match (the Lake Merced range) at least once a year. I don't know if they host other events or not.

Coyote Point is actually operated by the San Mateo County Sheriff's office. SMCSO does training out there, and they also host other agencies (local, state and Federal). Members of the general public can use that range M/W/F 7-10PM and on weekends there are some matches open to the public, which are hosted by the Coyote Point Rifle & Pistol Club.

Coyote Point is actually the sort of hybrid access model I'd like to see. Sure, LEO's need to train, and that should be the priority. But if the range is sitting dark and empty at night or weekends, then sure, open it up, even in some limited (i.e. matches only) fashion to the public.

Until recently, Jim Tanner was the SMCSO's Rangemaster (he still is, on paper, but he no longer has his office at the range) and he ran a pretty good facility *for what he had to work with*. That includes both the physical condition of the range, and the policies handed down to him by higher ups. Putting pressure on elected council/board members may only go so far. It seems like COPs and Sheriffs have the ears of the local government folks and if they say "Nah, we can't", the local government folks aren't going to care one bit about arguments to the contrary.

I think the best approach is to make inroads with the head LEO in question, make a solid case for access, and then let the public AND the head LEO take the matter to the council/board and show them "Hey, this is a REALLY good idea."

While it's not a whole bunch of money, Coyote Point does charge the public to get access and some small revenue comes from that. In these tough times, revenue streams are important and money talks.

[SDJim]

I know it doesn't help you up in Nor-CAL but the SDPD range (25 yrd) off of Home / Federal & 94 is open from 08 - 1500 every day but Tuesday(?) for 10$ all day.

[Wherryj]

Police training facilities are paid for by taxpayer dollars. As tacobandit pointed out in another thread, many agencies have comprehensive training facilities, not just ranges and instructors but full-fledged simulators.

Why can't the public get access to the majority of these facilities?

One would think that it is in the public interest for law-abiding citizens to have access to technology and equipment that would allow them to do better in saving their lives under stressful conditions.

San Francisco PD has two firing ranges: airport and Lake Merced. Not only are these police only, but the LTC process established by San Francisco (PDF) charges $1722 for initial range qualification. That's one thousand seven hundred twenty-two dollars.

San Jose State University PD has a firing range originally intended for Administration of Justice students. Now police only.

Conversely, if anyone is aware of any publicly owned facilities, especially in Northern California, which do allow public access -- please do share.

Yes, but requalification is "only" $1054,96.

It seems that the claim is that all fees are set by "federal statutory rates" "except hourly rate of pay" for the range master. The course is 8 hours, that is $212 an hour. Is that legitimate? If so, I am in the wrong line of business.

[Wherryj]

It is incredibly expensive to open and operate a range. I do not think people would pay the "fair" rate us use PD ranges.

The people have already paid the "fair rate", even those who have never fired a round in their lives. These are supported by tax payers, not the officers themselves.