LOC While in Campsite Clarity

[ballistics101]

This is in regards to what I feel is a misconception by many, many people that may have been easily overlooked. I will do my best to explain and hope you can clarify if I am mistaken.

Many presume that loaded open carry is legal in ones campsite home or temporary residence per 12031 (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

However 12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory. (f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

Now, in Yosemite, it is now legal to open carry. However discharging a firearm is prohibited. So while section (i) might seem to be used as an exemption, it does not state that a loaded firearm can be carried in a campsite, it says you can have one at. I think this is misunderstood. Having one at, and carrying are 2 different things, and this is where the debate could end up a misdemeanor or worse, a felony.

If you read on down 12031 PC it says (j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property.

This clearly states again the word carrying. So under those exemptions, loaded open carry is exempt, note the word "Carry"

Per 12031(i) It seems that carrying a loaded gun inside you home or temp res, actually is a violation of 12031(a), as it clearly states you may have one at, not carry one on your person. Obviously UOC is legal an so is having a loaded firearm at ones campsite, however, carrying a loaded firearm in ones campsite or home "where shooting is prohibited" is not clearly defined, and no permission to do so has been clearly spelled out as in other exemptions such as grave danger, lawful arrest etc.

If we are on BLM Land where shooting is permitted, than 12031(a) would not apply and LOC is fine because discharging a firearm is allowed. However, where shooting is prohibited per 12031(f) such as in your home or campsite, 12031 (a) (guilty of carrying a loaded weapon) would apply, because as stated in section (i) you could have a loaded firearm at, but not carry on your person as that would violate 12031(a). This is only speculation as I read it, if I missing something in the code that clearly states LOC is allowed in home or temp residence, please correct me.

thanks
_________________________
- j

ballistics101

~ There is nothing more fearful than ignorance in action.

[gunsmith]

I thought that if the law does not specify it is illegal then its silent on that & legal.

[BigDogatPlay]

Welcome to Calguns!

Very large and complete thread on guns, camping and parklands.... here.

[Librarian]

You also need to tie that with PC 12026 (b)

(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or
carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within
the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to
purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed,
a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of
residence, place of business, or on private property owned or
lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.

If you can legally HAVE it loaded, you can legally CARRY it loaded in the specified places.

12026 was amended to include 'carry' after People v Overturf.

See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...oncealed_Carry

Nice first post.

[ballistics101]

Librarian, That makes good sense. So is it fair to say one could carry loaded and concealed in ones own domicile? House Biz, or campsite.

12026 (b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state ... to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the application of Section 12031.

12031(i) Allows one to carry loaded in home, camp , etc.

Using the exemption 12026 (b) combined with exemption 12031(i) Loaded concealed carry is lawful in your own campsite even though discharging a weapon is prohibited. Would that be fair to say? And also be a good idea to memorize.

Upon reading close 12026 it also seems to say that one needs no permit or license to purchase a firearm at his home, biz, etc. So why do we need to do the FFL transfer?

~ j

[Librarian]

No license needed to purchase anywhere, except of course that pesky HSC that strikes me as a required-for-handgun-purchase state-issued piece of paper...

So why do we need to do the FFL transfer?

Because in their infinite wisdom, the legislature passed PC 12070 in 1991

(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless
he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any
person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

12071 and following is the State licensing requirements for CA FFLs.

See also the wiki article on buying and selling -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._in_California

[ballistics101]

Got it, the rabbit hole of law is perpetual. As for the first question to clarify.

Using the exemption 12026 (b) combined with exemption 12031(i) Loaded concealed carry is lawful in your own campsite even though discharging a weapon is prohibited. Would that be fair to say?

[chris12]

I've read a bunch of posts recently on not carrying in your front yard unless it is properly gated and possibly locked. If a front yard doesn't qualify as place of residence or private property, I would assume anything beyond the door of your tent/camper yet still in your campsite would be risky.

[MudCamper]

Got it, the rabbit hole of law is perpetual. As for the first question to clarify.

Using the exemption 12026 (b) combined with exemption 12031(i) Loaded concealed carry is lawful in your own campsite even though discharging a weapon is prohibited. Would that be fair to say?

IMO the answer is yes.

12031(l) moots any discharge restriction vs "prohibited area" language, since it exempts you from (a).

And even though 12026(a) doesn't include the nice "temporary residence or campsite" language like 12031(l) does, the legal definition of residence in many other areas of the PC (so one could reasonably argue it's also true in this one) does include any temporary residence or campsite. Your permanent residence or brick and mortar residence is your domicile.

[MudCamper]

I've read a bunch of posts recently on not carrying in your front yard unless it is properly gated and possibly locked. If a front yard doesn't qualify as place of residence or private property, I would assume anything beyond the door of your tent/camper yet still in your campsite would be risky.

That is an interesting (and awful) line of argument that I had not thought of before...

[jwkincal]

That is an interesting (and awful) line of argument that I had not thought of before...

But aren't those about the GFSZ for the most part?

[boxbro]

I've read a bunch of posts recently on not carrying in your front yard unless it is properly gated and possibly locked. If a front yard doesn't qualify as place of residence or private property, I would assume anything beyond the door of your tent/camper yet still in your campsite would be risky.

This was my thought as well.

[Southwest Chuck]

I've read a bunch of posts recently on not carrying in your front yard unless it is properly gated and possibly locked. If a front yard doesn't qualify as place of residence or private property, I would assume anything beyond the door of your tent/camper yet still in your campsite would be risky.

OK, I've seen this "Stay in your Tent or Camper" argument before. It irked me then, and It really irks me now.

RANT ON .....

The law specifically states "Campsite". When I go camping I routinely "stake" my claim to my "Campsite". In other words, I set chairs, tent, vehicle, stove, ice chest, dog bowels, firewood, table, etc. etc. etc. around my "Campsite" to delineate my "Campsite" from other open areas or other sites. Beyond that designated perimeter, is where you might encounter some risk, depending on distance, IMO.

Although I rarely camp in an improved, "official" campground, I ALWAYS make damn sure it's "plainly obvious" where my "Campsite " ends and another "Campsite" or open space begins, just because of this exemption in the law. Also, as always, I take pictures of my "Campsite" and as long as I stay within the perimeter of my "Campsite", I have no problem with LOC. As an added bonus, My dog will NOT let anyone "in" my "Campsite" and serves to challenge anyone (LEO or not) attempting to do so unless given the "OK" by me.

In addition, a LEO would have a tough time proving that I was not with-in my "Campsite", but that does not mean that If I do run into one with an attitude, he might try and give me some grief about it.

So, right or wrong, risk or no risk, that's how I roll. At some point, you have to take a stand on what the law "plainly" says, and I've taken mine. Other people can make their own risk assessment, but I just can't see staying in my tent cowering about the "what if's". Life too short. I'm the only one responsible for my own and my families safety while camping.

I rather be judged by 12 ........

Do your own risk assessment and then do what feels right to you. But I can assure you, I won't the one cowering in my tent or camper with my 1911.

RANT OFF..... There, I feel much better now...

[Rumline]

I'm also irked by the argument that "campsite" means "within the walls of your tent or RV etc". If the legislature meant that, they'd have said that. Campsite implies not only the tent but also the space enclosing whatever accoutrements that are in close proximity to the tent. Stove, BBQ, chuck box, cooler, table, chairs, etc. When you're camping, all those extra things are a necessary part of you "living" at that campsite. In your own home, you are able to go to different rooms to cook, eat, clean, sit, etc, but these activities are not possible inside a tent (unless you have an affinity for carbon monoxide poisoning or enjoy a wet sleeping bag). That's why it is reasonable for the law to say (and mean) "campsite" versus "inside the closed walls of a tent, camper, RV, etc." IMHO anyway.

[sequoia_nomad]

When I go camping I routinely "stake" my claim to my "Campsite". In other words, I set chairs, tent, vehicle, stove, ice chest, dog bowels, firewood, table, etc. etc. etc. around my "Campsite"

The dog bowels should keep the law away, although they might attract bears!

All kidding aside, I'm with you. Those are my sentiments exactly, I'd rather be prepared than a victim. I camp a lot in "unincorporated" Sequoia National Forest, always open carried, never been questioned.