Norway shootings, and how guns can save lives

[1911RONIN]

First I want to state that what this guy did was absolutely horrible, I am not justifying his actions, rather what I am doing is taking a "Cold view" of what he did based on what we know so far.

I want to state that I hope I am WRONG on my assessment, because if I am not, many more people will die.

This guy was not like "Loughner". He isn't crazy, he knew exactly what he was doing and this was planned out.

In his mind, he is a "Patriot", he is trying to save his country and he did what he felt was necessary because "Norway" is going the wrong way.

A true Patriot will stand up to their government when they belief that their government is destructive to the survival of their country.

In his mind, he viewed government policies as destructive to Norway which is probably why he targeted the government buildings.

The summer camp he targeted wasn't just a summer camp, it was a youth retreat for the Labor party and what he did was targeted the labor party where they would hurt the most, their children.

This was a massive politically motivated attack on the Political Left of Europe and I have a gut feeling that Leftists leaders already have come to that conclusion and they are probably scared ****less.

Things are not so happy in Europe, a small but growing number of Europeans are concerned about the rise in the Islamic population, the reality is Europeans are becoming minorities in their own countries.

The reality is "Sharia Law" and "European Culture" are not compatible and the "Liberal Europeans" are in for a "rude awakening" if current popultaion trends continue.

His real goal was not to kill children, it was to start a "Revolution".

Unlike Timothy McVeigh, he didn' t try to get out of town, he stayed there to the police came and surrendered and now he wants to tell the world what he did and why.

Where McVeigh's lawyers wanted to stall, this guy is going to push and push.

Since McVeigh tried to claim he wasn't responsible for the Oklahoma city bombing, he lost his "bully puppet". This guy is very different.

In his mind, he has already had a substantial victory because he has got the attention of everyone not only in Norway, but all of Europe and the rest of the world.

The courts will become his "bully pulpit" and if this guy has any public speaking ability, the net effect is that he will spark other attacks across Europe.

Nicki

this.

there is little evidence this guy was crazy...in fact, his "paper trail" is incredibly lucid and coherent...

[Coded-Dude]

Without reading each post I was wondering if anyone had pointed out that "most" Europeans DO NOT have the basic human right to self defense.

Norway has privately owned firearms. The presence of which would have been irrelevant. Violence in any form is prohibited. The use of any force to stop the gunman would have resulted in both criminal and civil consequences.

The people are literally conditioned to be sheep. They lack the proper training and would only complicate the process. Law enforcement and the military are the only entities qualified and authorized to handle these types of situations.

I routinely debate with a German fellow on another forum i frequent. He thinks we Americans are overzealous with our gun rights.

When I pointed out that if somebody on the island had been armed, there is a good chance that many lives would have been saved. His reply

It's always the same argument with "gun owners". Always. Even if guns were allowed, who's to say that a HOLIDAY CAMP would have them on site? It's not like everybody and his mother NEEDS one here anyways... We are damn well fine without guns! (sorry, but this angers me a bit).

To which I replied. Tell that to the 80+ victims and their families. Some people prefer to be sheep in a wolf ridden world.

[a1c]

this.

there is little evidence this guy was crazy...in fact, his "paper trail" is incredibly lucid and coherent...

Psychopaths can be brilliant and perfectly coherent. That doesn't mean they're not "crazy", which is a rather vague term anyway.

[Wernher von Browning]

I routinely debate with a German fellow on another forum i frequent. He thinks we Americans are overzealous with our gun rights.

That's funny.

I have clients in Germany. One day I told one "Well, I'm off to the range today..." He said "You Americans sure are a trigger-happy bunch, aren't ya?" I replied "Let me put it this way. My toy for today is a Mauser 98k. Brought back by a GI in 1945. So in the long run, who's been more trigger-happy?"

Yes, he's still a client.

I also have friends in Germany (older ones -- WW2 generation or just after) who rail about their silly gun rules. Like welding the sights on rifles so they're useless past 300 meters. Cutting off bayonet lugs. And I have friends over there who have Grandpa's Luger and hell no they're not going to report that or hand it over.

Despite the image we have over here of Europeans, esp. Brits, rolling over and complying with asinine laws, I think you can count on millions of firearms being kept, hidden, away from the grasping hands of officialdom. Numbers I've seen suggest that for every registered firearm in Germany, there are two more off the books.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/germany

The number of registered guns in Germany is reported to be 7,200,000
Unlawfully held guns cannot be counted, but in Germany there are estimated to be 17,000,000

OK, more than 2:1.

Run that by your German friend and see what he says. And remember, Germans are conditioned to obey the laws -- if somebody gives an order, they by and large follow it (and this has gotten them into mondo trouble in the past...) How strong must their feelings, or suspicions about the laws, be, to make that many normally submissive people ignore the (rather draconian) gun registration laws?

[Wernher von Browning]

Psychopaths can be brilliant and perfectly coherent. That doesn't mean they're not "crazy", which is a rather vague term anyway.

I think the standard for "not guilty by reason of insanity" in US courts is that the subject is not aware of his actions or their consequences. Or maybe it's "not able to assist in their own defense." I think that can be pretty well ruled out in this case. No idea what Norway's standards might be but I don't think any sort of "crazy" or "insanity" argument is going to carry any weight there.

[a1c]

I think the standard for "not guilty by reason of insanity" in US courts is that the subject is not aware of his actions or their consequences. Or maybe it's "not able to assist in their own defense." I think that can be pretty well ruled out in this case. No idea what Norway's standards might be but I don't think any sort of "crazy" or "insanity" argument is going to carry any weight there.

You're right about the US definition of legal insanity. Given what we've heard so far, it sounds like the guy here would be found legally sane. Over there, I don't know. My guess is that he could very well find himself locked away in a mental hospital for a very long time.

[1911RONIN]

Psychopaths can be brilliant and perfectly coherent. That doesn't mean they're not "crazy", which is a rather vague term anyway.

One mass killing is not the criteria for psychopathy in the DSM-IV or elsewhere. He is not clinically "crazy" based on what we have so far...though that may change.

Are we too afraid to believe that a rational, intelligent and mentally stable person might do this? Because "crazy" helps you to explain his actions does not mean that that is THE explanation for his actions...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Diagnosis

[Stonewalker]

One mass killing is not the criteria for psychopathy in the DSM-IV or elsewhere. He is not clinically "crazy" based on what we have so far...though that may change.

Are we too afraid to believe that a rational, intelligent and mentally stable person might do this? Because "crazy" helps you to explain his actions does not mean that that is THE explanation for his actions...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Diagnosis

Yes. We have been shielded from life's harsh realities for too many generations to understand that taking life is part of life. Even animal life, people balk at the idea.

We live in such luxury that we don't literally have to defend our homes and families from bandits or worse.