Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Legal question on Nightvision and PC 468

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • #16
    ClarenceBoddicker
    Veteran Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 2783

    Originally posted by moleculo
    I like this breakdown, but being a noob to night vision, it would help if we could get a couple of example products / brands that are legal
    It's really impossible to give you what you are asking for as the word (legal) is the problem in CA when it come to weapon laws. What CA bans is Active Night Vision (AN/PAS-4) with an IR beam, but allows Passive Night Vision (AN/PVS-1 , 2, 3, & 4) or an Image Intensifier/"Starlight Scope", by the letter of the law. The problem is with the enforcement of that law in CA. Most LEO's know nothing about how night vision works, let alone the difference between Active & Passive.

    At a gun show table, a few of the LEO's working security started hassling me about my display. They claimed the PVS-1 mounted on my M-14 could be a "sniper scope". One of them said the green light that came out of the eyepiece was "a projected IR light source". My buddy ran over to borrow a book on night vision from John "the professor", so the LEO's could see a pic (T-3 carbine) of what CA in fact banned. It took a bit to get them to understand that a "sniper or snooper scope" requires an IR light source while a "Starlight Scope" works with ambient light alone. IR lights were not common in the 1960's (when the sniper scope was banned), as they are today. LEO's do not like anything weapon related that they do not understand. They also do not like to be reminded of their ignorance.

    Here's another one: a kid got busted for pointing a small laser pointer at a LE cruiser. He was arrested & charged with a felony. The Officer or DA used duct tape to show how it could be mounted to a weapon. They got him to plead guilty. Remember that some older camcorders work in IR & use a remote that "projects an IR light source". Duct tape one on your Glock & you may have a dreaded "sniper scope". Don't worry, as I'm sure that CA will just ban in the future any night vision that can be mounted to a weapon. Not very likely to happen, but you never can know in CA. It costs LEO's nothing to arrest you, but effective (not a worthless public defender who works for the DA) legal defense is very costly. Even if you win, you cannot collect damages, as you can in civil court.

    Comment

    • #17
      soopafly
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2005
      • 2039

      Originally posted by Librarian
      And I hope you are successful in moving, and have a healthy and happy life wherever you choose to settle.

      We get it.

      You don't like it here.

      You're moving.

      Enough.
      You mean to tell me warkaj posted that "move to free state" drivel in yet ANOTHER 2A thread?
      Geeez...what is that guy's major malfunction?
      sigpic

      Comment

      • #18
        Westerner
        Junior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 95

        Originally posted by moleculo
        I like this breakdown, but being a noob to night vision, it would help if we could get a couple of example products / brands that are legal
        This one is CA legal.

        Comment

        • #19
          Quiet
          retired Goon
          • Mar 2007
          • 30241

          Originally posted by Westerner
          That one is not CA legal.

          It has 4.5x magnification and has a built in IR illuminator (makes it an Active IR scope with magnification).


          Summary...
          Active IR scope with magnification = illegal
          Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
          Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
          Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal
          Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
          Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
          Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
          Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
          Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
          Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
          Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
          Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
          sigpic

          "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

          Comment

          • #20
            Westerner
            Junior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 95

            Originally posted by Quiet
            That one is not CA legal.

            It has 4.5x magnification and has a built in IR illuminator (makes it an Active IR scope with magnification).


            Summary...
            Active IR scope with magnification = illegal
            Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
            Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
            Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal
            Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
            Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
            Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
            Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
            Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
            Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
            Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
            Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
            I think it's legal man.

            Comment

            • #21
              EODWRX
              Member
              • Feb 2008
              • 109

              Holy ****! What a stupid thing to have a law against. I never even gave night vision a second thought, but ****ing wow!
              Continuity is not important as long as everything is touching!

              Comment

              • #22
                Quiet
                retired Goon
                • Mar 2007
                • 30241

                I go by the letter of the law [PC 468].

                That night vision scope uses a projected infrared light source (IR illuminator) and is an electronic telescope (4.5x magnification)

                Since night vision devices are not regulated within the USA, it's very easy to obtain/import an night vision device that is legal in other states, but illegal in CA.

                Ignorance of the law is no defense aganist being arrested and having your property confiscated while the lawyers figure it out.
                Go ahead spend the $$$$ to acquire that scope, but don't cry later on if it gets confiscated & you get arrested for a misdemeanor firearms offense.


                Penal Code 468
                Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
                As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
                This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.
                Last edited by Quiet; 01-25-2012, 10:57 PM.
                sigpic

                "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

                Comment

                • #23
                  CHS
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 11338

                  Originally posted by Quiet
                  nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.
                  Just sayin
                  Please read the Calguns Wiki
                  Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
                  --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Quiet
                    retired Goon
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 30241

                    Originally posted by CHS
                    Just sayin
                    Using it and posting the results on your blog for educational purposes.

                    But, not everyone will be able to get away with using the scientific/education exemption.
                    Last edited by Quiet; 01-25-2012, 11:20 PM.
                    sigpic

                    "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      CrysisMonkey
                      Member
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 129

                      Originally posted by BigFatGuy
                      What about an IR security camera with led's and a zoom lens?
                      Don't forget about the capable of being mounted to a rifle part. Security cameras don't come with that abillity. If you add that abillity, then it would be illegal.

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        CrazyPhuD
                        Member
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 458

                        In short, if you own an Xbox360 Kinect and are using it for anything other than research or educational purposes(playing games isn't allowed!), you are in violation of this statute.

                        It posses a active infrared laser projector, IR receptor and digital zoom capabilities. Given ~a week to write the software I could turn it into an IR targeting and tracking system. Effectiveness outside of 20FT would be questionable but it is definitely fairly straight forward to adapt it to such a capability. Afterall it already does IR targeting and tracking to detect you for the Xbox.

                        If a prosecutor felt like charging everyone who possesses a kinect under this statute he could. Hell if you have a digital camera(i.e. your cell phone), you're probably also in violation. Every living creature on this planet is an infrared light projector, there is no requirement in the statute that the light source be part of the device. Unless you have legal precedence that says an IR illuminator is required to be prosecuted under this statute don't assume they couldn't prosecute and win.

                        This is the insanity of CA law, they are so vague that if a prosecutor wants to he can charge you, and he'll win unless you careful. Unfortunately until more court cases are won against overly broad regulations we'll have to deal with the potential to be arrested.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          CrazyPhuD
                          Member
                          • Jun 2010
                          • 458

                          Originally posted by CrysisMonkey
                          Don't forget about the capable of being mounted to a rifle part. Security cameras don't come with that abillity. If you add that abillity, then it would be illegal.
                          Well per the statute you don't have to add the ability to be in violation. If it is capable of being adapted to such use it is illegal. One could argue this is constructive possession under this statute. The key is that it says 'adaptable to' not 'adapted to'.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          UA-8071174-1