Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

SCOTUS: DeShaney v. Winnebago County. CCW Implications?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • choprzrul
    Calguns Addict
    • Oct 2009
    • 6544

    SCOTUS: DeShaney v. Winnebago County. CCW Implications?

    It would appear to me that any LE agency that denies a CCW is accepting responsibility and liability for that person's safety:

    (a) A State's failure to protect an individual against private violence generally does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause, because the Clause imposes no duty on the State to provide members of the general public with adequate protective services. The Clause is phrased as a limitation on the State's power to act, not as a guarantee of certain minimal levels of safety and security; while it forbids the State itself to deprive individuals of life, liberty, and property without due process of law, its language cannot fairly be read to impose an affirmative obligation on the State to ensure that those interests do not come to harm through other means. Pp. 194-197.

    (b) There is no merit to petitioner's contention that the State's knowledge of his danger and expressions of willingness to protect him against that danger established a "special relationship" giving rise to an affirmative constitutional duty to protect. While certain "special relationships" created or assumed by the State with respect to particular individuals may give rise to an affirmative duty, enforceable through the Due Process [p190] Clause, to provide adequate protection, see Estelle v. Gamble, 429 U.S. 97"]429 U.S. 97; 429 U.S. 97; Youngberg v. Romeo, 457 U.S. 307, the affirmative duty to protect arises not from the State's knowledge of the individual's predicament or from its expressions of intent to help him, but from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty. No such duty existed here, for the harms petitioner suffered did not occur while the State was holding him in its custody, but while he was in the custody of his natural father, who was in no sense a state actor. While the State may have been aware of the dangers that he faced, it played no part in their creation, nor did it do anything to render him more vulnerable to them. Under these circumstances, the Due Process Clause did not impose upon the State an affirmative duty to provide petitioner with adequate protection. Pp. 197-201.

    (c) It may well be that, by voluntarily undertaking to provide petitioner with protection against a danger it played no part in creating, the State acquired a duty under state tort law to provide him with adequate protection against that danger. But the Due Process Clause does not transform every tort committed by a state actor into a constitutional violation. Pp. 201-202.

    812 F.2d. 298, affirmed.
    We know that the police are under no obligation to protect us per the above SCOTUS decision(the part in Red above). However, the supremes left open (rather concisely) those conditions whereby the police ARE liable for our protection(bold & underlined above).

    Now, if I apply to my local CLEO and my county sheriff for a CCW permit, and am subsequently denied a permit, under this decision, would those law enforcement agencies become instantly responsible for my personal security via this clause: "...from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty."? Heller & McDonald established that Keep, Bear, and Self-Defense as fundamental, individual, civil rights, i.e. Liberties. A CCW denial is a Liberty denial.

    It looks to me like law enforcement agencies are opening themselves up to giant amounts of personal injury liability each time they deny a CCW. I could see a cottage industry developing for personal injury attorneys who pursue these types of cases. Imagine how many people would apply for a CCW just on the outside chance they got hurt down the line and could sue for damages in the millions.
    Last edited by choprzrul; 06-16-2011, 12:57 PM.
  • #2
    Peaceful John
    Member
    • Apr 2008
    • 312

    Choprzrul, those bits might be one of the keys to the kingdom. Thank you.

    Cordially,
    John

    Comment

    • #3
      Window_Seat
      Veteran Member
      • Apr 2008
      • 3533

      Good find.

      Gone could be the days of:

      Citizen: "We have been assaulted, and demand being given the fundamental & individual right of the ability to protect ourselves."
      Government: "We do not have to protect you, and you are not allowed to protect yourself."

      Erik.

      Comment

      • #4
        Paul S
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2010
        • 1847

        Indeed..a good catch. But I cannot fathom the cost and heartache in suing department X for refusing to issue a carry permit. And I am sure that is the only way you'd be able to get redress using this SCOTUS ruling.
        Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

        Comment

        • #5
          Spelunker
          Member
          • Jul 2007
          • 458

          It looks like this was back in 1989 and was in the 7th circuit. I wonder what our good ole 9th has decided in this area of law. Maybe there is a split we could take advantage of.

          On second reading it looks like they are saying that the state is only responsible if you are in their custody and are injured.

          Comment

          • #6
            choprzrul
            Calguns Addict
            • Oct 2009
            • 6544

            Originally posted by Spelunker
            It looks like this was back in 1989 and was in the 7th circuit. I wonder what our good ole 9th has decided in this area of law. Maybe there is a split we could take advantage of.

            On second reading it looks like they are saying that the state is only responsible if you are in their custody and are injured.
            I disagree. "...or other similar restraint of personal liberty..." is why. There are many ways by which government entities and their agents can restrain your personal liberties.

            Heller & McDonald established and incorporated the 2A as personal liberties. They also left open those areas by which the individual states can restrain those liberties, such as sensitive places and regulating carry. It is those areas of restraint where the state is assuming responsibility and therefore liability for your personal security or lack thereof. When a government agency receives your application that requests permission to exercise your personal liberties, and subsequently denies that request, they are in deed and action denying your personal liberties and taking on the responsibility to protect you under this decision.

            .

            Comment

            • #7
              Spelunker
              Member
              • Jul 2007
              • 458

              "but from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty."

              They mention imprisonment, institutionalization and then say similar restraints. It could be read to be if you are in detainment or custody mode without the ability to leave an area of your own free accord then the state would be responsible. I think it can be read both ways.

              Comment

              • #8
                Crom
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 1619

                Originally posted by choprzrul
                Now, if I apply to my local CLEO and my county sheriff for a CCW permit, and am subsequently denied a permit, under this decision, would those law enforcement agencies become instantly responsible for my personal security via this clause: "...from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty."? Heller & McDonald established that Keep, Bear, and Self-Defense as fundamental, individual, civil rights, i.e. Liberties. A CCW denial is a Liberty denial.

                It looks to me like law enforcement agencies are opening themselves up to giant amounts of personal injury liability each time they deny a CCW. I could see a cottage industry developing for personal injury attorneys who pursue these types of cases. Imagine how many people would apply for a CCW just on the outside chance they got hurt down the line and could sue for damages in the millions.
                Having a denial is valuable in that it can show harm was done. A better approach would be to apply for a CCW, and if denied on "good cause", take that denial letter and fold it up and put it back pocket and carry anyway. Given that LOC is illegal, the discretionary CCW law is unjust. I would rather carry and be alive then be a statistic in some victims database.

                Comment

                • #9
                  choprzrul
                  Calguns Addict
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 6544

                  Originally posted by Spelunker
                  "but from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty."

                  They mention imprisonment, institutionalization and then say similar restraints. It could be read to be if you are in detainment or custody mode without the ability to leave an area of your own free accord then the state would be responsible. I think it can be read both ways.
                  Thank you for the commentary. May I present your quote a bit differently:

                  but from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty.
                  They are addressing 'limitations'...'to act on his own behalf' because of 'restraint of personal liberty'.

                  I see this as exactly congruent with a CCW denial (limitation of my ability to act on my own behalf in a self defense scenario) creating a restraint of my personal liberty (as established & incorporated in Heller & McDonald). In other words, the denial is the government's way of preventing me from acting on my own behalf for the purpose of self defense. The government is clearly saying that they are NOT allowing me to act on my own behalf. CA Penal Code makes it illegal for me to act on my own behalf without their permission.

                  I contend that the government is under no obligation to protect me absent my CCW application. It is only under obligation once they have denied my application(my request to be personally responsible for my own liberties). At that point, they are saying to me 'we are restraining your personal liberty to act on your own behalf in a self defense situation'. They have de facto assumed responsibility for defending me. Should I be injured or killed, the government has failed to adequately defend me and should be liable for such failure.

                  ...well, at least that is the way I see it...

                  .

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    bruss01
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 5336

                    Originally posted by Spelunker
                    "but from the limitations which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf, through imprisonment, institutionalization, or other similar restraint of personal liberty."

                    They mention imprisonment, institutionalization and then say similar restraints. It could be read to be if you are in detainment or custody mode without the ability to leave an area of your own free accord then the state would be responsible. I think it can be read both ways.
                    Not all prisons have bars. Some prisons are a restrictive little cell where the walls are made of infringement and the denial of fundamental rights. Can you honestly say that the man who is told by those who have controlling power over him "All that is not mandatory is forbidden" is not essentially in a jail cell, regardless of how much physical space he has inside that cell?
                    The one thing worse than defeat is surrender.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      command_liner
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1175

                      Good catch.
                      Note the 2-dimensional aspect of the current situation
                      1) Now that Heller/McDonald have changed the law, that little gem has more meaning
                      2) The recent federal decision to release tens of thousands of felons into California
                      is based on similar reasoning. This sets up a conflict...
                      Do the 4th amendment rights of convicted felons released from jail supersede the
                      2nd amendment rights of the law abiding? If so, how is that? How is the duty of the
                      state to protect 4th amendment rights of felons stronger than the duty of the state
                      to protect 2nd amendment rights of the average law abiding citizen?
                      What about the 19th? Can the Commerce Clause be used to make it illegal for voting women to buy shoes from another state?

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Falconis
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2008
                        • 1688

                        I like where you are heading with this. Now all we need is someone to get denied a CCW and get mugged to create some standing.

                        FOR THE RECORD I AM NOT ADVISING TO GO GET MUGGED!!!!!

                        I can see how the state will argue, but in the end it's interesting.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          safewaysecurity
                          Calguns Addict
                          • Jun 2010
                          • 6166

                          Tagged
                          Originally posted by cudakidd
                          I want Blood for Oil. Heck I want Blood for Oil over hand wringing sentiment!
                          ^

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Maestro Pistolero
                            Veteran Member
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 3897

                            Nice find. Exactly what we need to take down GFSZs and define sensitive places in the narrowest possible context.


                            "EXCELLENT. BWAHAHAHAHA"
                            www.christopherjhoffman.com

                            The Second Amendment is the one right that is so fundamental that the inability to exercise it, should the need arise, would render all other rights null and void. Dead people have no rights.
                            Magna est veritas et praevalebit

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              yellowfin
                              Calguns Addict
                              • Nov 2007
                              • 8371

                              This may be even more useful against NY/NYC which requires license for pistol ownership and then often (rather maliciously) restricts them to exclude individuals from carrying them for self defense.
                              "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette
                              Originally posted by indiandave
                              In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
                              Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              UA-8071174-1