DOJ transfer nightmare....

[Librarian]

I keep waiting for some manufacturer to start gaming the handgun safety racket. Like maybe kimber would offer a single, generic, model in each of the 3, 1911 frame sizes. Those three models would be the only kimbers certified for sale in the state, and would only be offered in the state. For all practical purposes this model would be only far enough above junk status to pass the tests, and the price would be appropriate for its near junk status. The reciever would be new but the upper would be used.

A person could then buy this gun and immediately ship it off to Kimber's custom shop with a check, and it would come back "much improved". The junk slide would get pulled off an put on another frame headed for CA. The net price of the finished gun would be in the neighborhood of what you would have spent on an equivalent model out of state.

Ruger could do a similar thing. One model of GP-100 certified for sale in CA.; all with used 4 inch barrels, all retailing at 49 state retail price -$50. Send them back to ruger with a 50 buck check and it comes back with any length barrel you want. You'd only be out the shipping fees.

Perfectly legal - it's only FFLs who need to worry about selling from the list. Once the sale is approved and the pistol delivered, individuals can customize them any way they like (other than creating 'assault weapons', of course).

But why would dealers carry low-ball models? Where's the $$ for them? And manufacturers would have to expand their custom shops a little bit. Aside from that, pretty good idea.

[emc002]

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the dealer. The FFL has a job to do and it simply isn't worth it to do anything wrong. The dealer is just playing the game as it was set up.

It's not jumping on the dealer, it's simply reducing my chances of dealing with people that may or may not clearly understand the business in which they purport to be. Call it what you like, I'd rather deal with a FFL that is well versed and knowledgable.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Go to the CA DOJ website. Click on Roster of Handguns Certified For Sale. Enter Sturm Ruger for manufacturer. Click Sort by model. Then you will see this:

There are 122 matching records for Sturm, Ruger & Co.
The matching records list is sorted by Model
This list is valid for Thursday, August 09, 2007

Model Gun Type Barrel Length Caliber Exp Date
GP-141 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GP-161 / Blue Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GP160 / Blue Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-331 / Blue Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-340 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-341 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-141 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-141TG / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 6/3/2008
KGP-160 / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-161 / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-330 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-331 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-340 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-341 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-840 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .38 Spl 12/31/2007

[Inoxmark]

OJW, my understanding is that Kali Gurl is asking for advise on how to prove to the transfer dealer that GP100 in question is in fact model KGPF-331.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I am in Taft, I will DROS it for you......And as an FFL you never call the DOJ about these things. You DROS it, you wait the ten days, you get it out of your shop. Once it leaves, who is going to know the numbers didn't match up exactly? Calling the DOJ just puts you on the radar, just like typing this in a public forum!

As a former Taft resident....and a former client of the OTHER gun store in Taft.... I remember what the ATF did to him.... do you?

Tread carefully friend....

[Inoxmark]

I've often wondered why the DOJ doesn't simply add the standard retail SKU number to the approved list. Many manufacturers already show this on their website, so having it on the list would make it easy to check if a model is legal to acquire new in California. In this case the FFL could just compare the SKU on the original case with the list - no ambiguities, no questions.

There may be fewer ambiguities, but this system would be a hell of a lot more restrictive than what we have now. For example the following one line on the roster:
"M&P 9 (Mag Safety) / Stainless Steel, Polymer"
would cover the following SKUs:
109201: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 2 Mags
109601: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 2 Mags
Would also cover the following SKUs provided the 17rd mags are replaced with 10rd ones:
209201: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 2 Mags
209601: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 2 Mags
309201: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 3 Mags
309601: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 3 Mags

Also, as we know the color of the slide on M&P9 is black. Who can say that at some point they wouldn't release actual stainless steel versions of the above, which would also be covered by the quoted description.

Also, just about everyone doing interstate transfer of a used gun would be in the same position as the original poster: how to prove that the gun is question is the actual listed SKU. That is just about impossible without original box with original manufacturer label containing both SKU and the handgun's serial number.

[thomasanelson]

I agree this is insane, but so are most CA gun laws. Really can't fault the dealer, as the penalties are harsh. Ruger is just causing more problems by either not putting the "real" name on the gun or changing the real name to reflect what is already on the gun. BUT....in all fairness, my Sig P229R DAK only says P229 on the slide.

[tenpercentfirearms]

As a former Taft resident....and a former client of the OTHER gun store in Taft.... I remember what the ATF did to him.... do you?

Tread carefully friend....

This isn't the ATF. This is the DOJ. And one can aruge that it was actually the Taft PD that did that to him, if you like to listen to rumors.

Basically, they screwed up and put down the catalog numbers for these guns instead of their model numbers. I just looked at a Ruger Single Six I have in. The catalog number that is on the gun is no where on the firearm.

So if the dealer just says, yeah, it was the KGPF-331 and as long as the DOJ doesn't show up at the shop in that time, you got nothing to worry about it. If they do show up at the shop, it won't be any different than if I ordered a KGPF-331 new from a wholesaler in the box. It isn't going to say it is a KGPF-331 on the gun, it just says it on the box.

Basically, this is a big SNAFU on both the DOJ and Ruger's part and it should be addressed. I would never fault a dealer for covering their rear and not doing this with this ambiguity present, especially a new dealer who thinks the DOJ has the resources to screw with piddly stuff like this. Of course they are going to give you a canned answer over the phone, but reality is something different.

Welcome to the world of confusing gun laws.

[Kali Gurl]

Hey...thanks to everyone for their replies! Sometimes airing what you feel seems to get things moving at other levels...an example being that within 8 hrs of posting my message, my FFL leaves me a cheery phone msg that the DOJ okayed the transfer of my GP100/KGPF-331. It was just one of those odd synchronistic events but it struck me as being rather "amusing." Now... what I DO blame my FFL for is her utter lack of interest in following my suggestion to check out the Ruger catalog BEFORE she got on the phone to call the DOJ. I will maintain that someone who refuses to use his/her brain to actually think about the situation or who has no problem-solving skills, should not be an FFL. I had to spend my own time and numerous phone calls to her, emailing information, photos, etc...in order for this to get resolved. I did the work, she collects the fee. It was a pain in the butt, period. From the Roster:

KGPF-330 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-331 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007

Had she simply noted the ONLY TWO Ruger model numbers on the Roster that could have matched my gun, and then checked the Ruger online catalog [as I suggested three times while I stood there] then my transfer papers could have been completed that very first day. KGPF-331 is full shroud and the 330 is the half shroud model. The picture for the 331 is a 100% match to my 331 so...duh...I can understand been cautious but she was unwilling to even go to the Ruger online catalog and look at the frickin' photo. Her actions showed no interest or curiosity to my assertions that I was 100% certain of the model of my gun. Actually, she seems uncomfortable with guns...sort of pretending she was holding a hand mixer or an iPod or something...you know, outwardly matter of fact but obviously uncomfortable. I did go and complete the transfer but, no, I would never go there again. This is a large Mercantile Store and they sell everything from ATVs to lightbulbs. They also do firearm transfers and sell ammo but they do not carry any guns for sale...strictly transfers only. Just as an aside, my FFL blamed the whole mess on the DOJ employee she got on the phone who said a big NO! on the transfer. I thought about this later, and what else was that person going to say? She couldn't see the gun in question and my FFL was telling her straight out that she didn't see the gun on the list. I would've said no myself if I'd been on the other end of the phone. Ruger isn't the only manufacturer who doesn't put the actual model number on their handguns; surely an FFL should know this, and how to verify specific models. Besides a lack of experience, I believe my [former] FFL is afraid of the DOJ and of making a mistake. And while I sympathize, she could vastly minimize her fear/paranoia by simply educating herself. Anyway, this experience was a real drain. I'm done venting...sigh! Thanks again for all the responses.

Kali Gurl

BTW, no I didn't have the original box. It would've made a big difference since the label reads GP100/KGPF-331.
At the very least, there should be some kind of guide for new FFLs on how to decipher the Roster and that there is NOT a standardized method for model identification amongst manufacturers. A simple solution to this riduculous and unnecessary confusion would be a short, simple guide with a few examples...then maybe a ten question quiz that the FFL candidate must submit with their application. This would be a positive response to this problem, rather than the DOJ just telling FFLs that they could be slapped with a big fine for making a mistake.

[E Pluribus Unum]

This isn't the ATF. This is the DOJ. And one can aruge that it was actually the Taft PD that did that to him, if you like to listen to rumors.

I know the rumors and I know the story...

I know the Taft officer that shot him.

The coroner said the fatal shot was the shot to the head sustained by his own 45....

The ATF said they were struggling over the gun and it went off... Taft PD officer shot post mordum.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I know the rumors and I know the story...

I know the Taft officer that shot him.

The coroner said the fatal shot was the shot to the head sustained by his own 45....

The ATF said they were struggling over the gun and it went off... Taft PD officer shot post mordum.

In any event the state got what it wanted, another FFL out of business!

[tenpercentfirearms]

In any event the state got what it wanted, another FFL out of business!

Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

[Shane916]

Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

haha I imagine that would not help ones cause

[E Pluribus Unum]

Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

They never found any illegal weapons... they only had a warrant.

[tenpercentfirearms]

They never found any illegal weapons... they only had a warrant.

That doesn't prove or disprove anything. That is why you have cameras in your shop so everything is on tape. If they murder me in my shop, there will be evidence. Assuming they murder me and I don't just try to committ suicide.

I just find it hard to believe that four cops from three different agencies are going to keep their story straight if one of them decides to murder a guy. Or were all four of them out to get him?

I wasn't there, so I don't know. Only five people know the truth and one of them is dead.

Lets make a new thread on this topic so as not to hijack this one.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=65952