Military dual residency

[kermit315]

Legal minds of Calguns, I have a question.

I am in the military (sig kind of gives it away). I maintain my Illinois residency, and can buy guns in Florida due to my PCS orders. ATF from what I can tell doesnt have a minimum time limit on dual residency (no minimum time you must be in what I will call the secondary state, in this case, Illinois) before they can buy guns. I have Illinois DL, Illinois registration, Illinois FOID card, registered to vote there, etc. I am specifically not a resident of Florida, as I dont have any state issued documents, and was told that I dont qualify for the homestead exemption down here because I am an Illinois resident.

Can I legally buy pistols in Illinois when on leave, or transiting between duty stations? The only difference I can see between military and civilian dual residency is that being in the military, I cant be away from here for long periods due to military obligations, whereas a civilian might have a month at a time free to live in another state.

[jtmkinsd]

Buy away...it's your home state

[HskrVern]

Legal minds of Calguns, I have a question.

I am in the military (sig kind of gives it away). I maintain my Illinois residency, and can buy guns in Florida due to my PCS orders. ATF from what I can tell doesnt have a minimum time limit on dual residency (no minimum time you must be in what I will call the secondary state, in this case, Illinois) before they can buy guns. I have Illinois DL, Illinois registration, Illinois FOID card, registered to vote there, etc. I am specifically not a resident of Florida, as I dont have any state issued documents, and was told that I dont qualify for the homestead exemption down here because I am an Illinois resident.

Can I legally buy pistols in Illinois when on leave, or transiting between duty stations? The only difference I can see between military and civilian dual residency is that being in the military, I cant be away from here for long periods due to military obligations, whereas a civilian might have a month at a time free to live in another state.

I asked the same question a while ago and the BATF considers you a resident of where ever your PCS orders are. Unless you commute from your home state to base your are only a resident of where your PCS orders are. As far as they are concerned you aren't a resident of your home of record. Sorry about the jumbledness I've been hitting the Chimay tonight.


*********Quote:
(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained....


(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State? [Back]

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

[kermit315]

No problem. What I am saying is: Dual residency for civilians means meeting the residency requirements of both states, and spending an arbitrary and not specified amount of time in each. Since ATF doesnt say how long, it could be 1 day for all anybody knows. The ATF FAQ seems to be clarifying that we can buy guns in our PCS duty station state(s) because with ID from a different state, most FFL's would look at you funny. It doesnt say that military members cant have dual residency the exact same way civilians do. That being said, since there are no minimum time requirements and I am considered a resident of both states, why dont the regular old dual residency rules kick in?

[HskrVern]

No problem. What I am saying is: Dual residency for civilians means meeting the residency requirements of both states, and spending an arbitrary and not specified amount of time in each. Since ATF doesnt say how long, it could be 1 day for all anybody knows. The ATF FAQ seems to be clarifying that we can buy guns in our PCS duty station state(s) because with ID from a different state, most FFL's would look at you funny. It doesnt say that military members cant have dual residency the exact same way civilians do. That being said, since there are no minimum time requirements and I am considered a resident of both states, why dont the regular old dual residency rules kick in?

Heck, I'm transfering to the Hampton roads area of Virginia. I could possibly live in North Carolina, have PCS orders to Virginia and pay taxes in Nebraska. The way I understand it (through the haze of the BATF/E) is that I can buy in Virginia via PCS orders, North Carolina because I'd live there. However, since Nebraska is not on my PCS orders nor would I be commuting from there I could not buy firearms there.

[kermit315]

Heck, I'm transfering to the Hampton roads area of Virginia. I could possibly live in North Carolina, have PCS orders to Virginia and pay taxes in Nebraska. The way I understand it (through the haze of the BATF/E) is that I can buy in Virginia via PCS orders, North Carolina because I'd live there. However, since Nebraska is not on my PCS orders nor would I be commuting from there I could not buy firearms there.

This is why I am wondering why military doesnt fall under the same dual residency rules as everybody else does. Like I said, there is no minimum time stated by the ATF. If residency requirements are met in both states, I dont see why it doesnt work. You keep HOR residency, in your case, Nebraska. PCS orders establishes residency in your permanent duty station state(s).

I am really just thinking out loud here, because I can buy anything I want in Florida, but it might be helpful if I ever got stationed back in California, or for those that are currently stationed in California.

[CHS]

You would have to satisfy the residency requirements of the state that you wish to buy the firearm in.

Obviously PCS orders satisfy residency for Florida. Since you don't have them for Illinois, you would have to figure out what constitutes "residency" for Illinois. Just having your original ID there and being on leave for more than a couple weeks might be enough.

[FireControlman]

I am a CA resident, over 12 years ago I was stationed in VA, PCS orders did not suffice for the FFL when my ID was from CA; they asked for additional documentation showing I was a resident such as a lease or utility bill.

[kermit315]

Another take on this is:how do military members with pcs orders overseas buy guns when home in the us?

[FireControlman]

Back home, as in your home state where you have a valid ID or DL.

[Edward Peruta]

If you have PCS orders and live on or near your duty station, you should be able to obtain a Florida Resident I.D. card without having a Florida Driver's License etc.

Visit or call your nearest Florida DMV and ask to speak with a supervisor.

A person may have more than one "RESIDENCE" but only one "DOMICILE".In your case, you reside in both Il. and Fl. with your Domicile in Il.

[kermit315]

I dont need a FL ID. I can buy whatever I want in Florida with my pcs orders. The question comes up when I go home to Illinois, since I maintain my Illinois residency. I have an address there....hell, I still get mail there for one of my cars.

The secondary question becomes for those that are PCS'd overseas. They dont have a state of residence as per the ATF, since the PCS orders determing state of residence. So, what do those people do to buy guns, or are they just assed out of their constitutional right?

I am thinking I am legal to buy guns in Illinois when on leave, but cant find anything clear cut enough that I would want to hang my hat on it.

As far as Illinois residency: I have my DL, my cars registered there, registered to vote there, I have an address there that I still get mail at, I still have my FOID card. As far as Illinois is concerned, I am a resident.

[pgg]

I'm a VA resident. Own a house there, registered to vote there, drivers license there, pay state taxes on my military income there.

Maybe the ATF's answer (B12 posted by HskrVern) only applies to me because I own a home in Virginia? It seems ridiculous that another VA resident serving in CA like me, but not quite as financially well off as me, wouldn't have the same right while visiting home on leave. Gun rights shouldn't depend on one's ability to pay for acreage in one's home state.

Of course, ridiculous and the ATF go hand in hand, so maybe it really is like that.

[kermit315]

I agree with what you are saying. Residency is residency. IMO, the only reason the ATF addressed the PCS orders for military personnel is because when this all came about (buying guns across state lines, etc), military members would have ID from their home state, and nothing for the state they were stationed in. They made a ruling that for buying guns, PCS orders counted for residency.

I find it appalling that I can pay taxes to a state, register my cars in a state, keep my DL in a state, yet cant buy guns in that same state because I am stationed somewhere else. There are only a couple of reasons to keep a home of record in the state you came from, and one of them is that you intend to return at the completion of your service.

In a semi related side note: Chicago board of elections ruled that Rham can run for mayor of chicago, completely ignoring the 1 year residency requirement that said "must live withing chicago for 1 year prior to running". They said it was because he maintained his Illinois DL, and voted in Chicago elections, while living in Washington. Also, he said that he intended to return to chicago. How can he skate the residential restrictions, but somebody in the military cant. Its rhetorical, so dont answer.