? re: non permanent 10/30s and the like

[CHS]

You still have not shown me how this is manufacturing a high capacity magazine under the law.

Yes I did. You did not comply with the full qualifications of the law by permanently altering a large capacity feeding device in order for it to no longer be construed by the law to be a large capacity feeding device anymore.

So you manufactured a magazine. And if it's not permanent, the law still considers it a large-capacity magazine. So you manufactured a large capacity magazine.

A DA, a LEO, a civilian can not disassemble an item and reassemble it into an illegal item, and then charge the owner with a crime. That in itself is illegal. Its called manufacturing evidence and lawyers lose the right to practice law for it. Judges go ape-crazy when they find out witnesses have manufactured evidence.

Correct. But a DA can certainly show off how your "permanently altered" magazine isn't permanent at all in court. That's going to be totally fine.

(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

You ATTEMPT to show a jury how you can disassemble the magazine and re-assemble it without the limiting block and load 11 rounds.

I object to that. You are modifing the magazine. Thats NOT my magazine. You are doing something I DID NOT DO.

If you really think you can get away with that in court, I think you might be a little delusional.

You're going to be like "That's permanent!!" And the DA is going to take the magazine and without ANY tools take it apart and go "No, it's not."

When the magazine is being disassembled with no tools whatsoever, who's going to believe who when it comes to saying what's permanent? I'm going to believe the DA.

The DA doesn't even have to put the magazine back together. All he has to do is show your statements saying that you put together a magazine, and that your modification was in absolutely no way whatsoever permanent.

Now if the DA had to bring in a hammer, set of punches, and a drill, you've got a strong case.

I sell a rebuild kit.
The DA charges both me and my buyer with a crime. I get a sales charge and he gets a manufacturing charge.

IS THIS POSSIBLE? No. Why not? By your logic a DA can just walk into court and assemble the KIT into a Large capacity magazine.

In the former you're talking about actually putting together a kit into a magazine. That is manufacturing. All the DA has to do is disassemble it without tools to show that the manufacturing wasn't permanent, and you've got a charge that will stick.

[Ryan in SD]

Or... better yet...

OBEY THE LAW.

I bet that's what the jews thought too in Nazi germany...

[dieselpower]

Wait. Please show me where the law says a 10/30 must be permanent.

Nowhere does it say that.

It says a large capacity magazine is NOT one that was permanently altered. You have to PROVE manufacturing. I did not manufacture a magazine with a capacity over 10. Now you may {MAY} have a legal leg to stand on if you can prove the magazine was first a 30rd magazine at one time in my posession....THEN and ONLY then can you come after me for not permanently altering it. AND thats only if I didn't own it prior to 1/1/2000. So you first have to prove post ban ownership of the magazine as a high capacity, then you can show when I ALTERED it, it is still a high capacity magazine since its not permanent.

You can NOT be charged with failure to permanently alter a magazine, Without first having a large capacity magazine that was possessed AFTER 1/1/2000. Its like saying I abused my child before i met my wife and got her pregnant...can't be done.

read the exclusion slowly....large-capacity magazine means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
To met this requirement I must first HAVE A large capacity magazine...and it must be owned AFTER 1/1/2000....

think it through...

the whole magazine law stuff is poorly worded and a screen door.

I will back down now. just spend the cash and buy a 10rd magazine, or put a drop of sealant on the floorplate.

[EBR Works]

OK, let's have a real example of what the OP was talking about.

Here we have a pre-ban AK 75rd drum mag that is legally owned. Again, it was acquired before the ban and is legally owned in it's fully assembled condition:



So let's say we want to use this mag in a featured AK build or AK pistol with an appropriate mag lock.

The mag gets disassembled and .25" OD copper tubing added to the slots that hold the rounds like this:



The only area that will allow rounds to be loaded for feeding into the firearm is circled in yellow. Someone could conceivably put additional rounds into the mag towards the center and inside of the area blocked by the tubing, but under no circumstances will they feed into the firearm. Unfortunately, there was not enough tubing to completely fill it to the center, but this should not matter since they cannot feed into the firearm from this position in the mag.

A rivet runs through the mag body into the tubing:



As you can see, the tubing interrupts the follower's travel limiting the capacity to 10 rounds:



Now, obviously this conversion can be reversed with a hammer, dremel, drill and punch to put it back to it's full 75rd capacity leaving only a tiny hole in the mag body.

So is this legal and permanent enough to use in a featured AK build or pistol?

Begin discussion......now..
.
.
.
.
.

[CSACANNONEER]

Impactco,

I'd consider the rivet to be a permanent mod but, I would be very worried about the fact that mag can "accept" additional rounds in the center. I don't see anywhere in the law which indicates that the rounds need to be capable of feeding from the mag. If it can contain more than 10 rounds, I wouldn't do it. But, copper tubing comes in longer lengths.

[EBR Works]

OK, ran to Home Depot. More tubing added to the center. Better?

[IrishPirate]

My thought is that once the magazine is taken apart it's no longer a magazine, so it wouldn't be temporary when you put it back together with a wood block or whatever making it a 10/30. It's only a magazine when it's fully assembled, and if it can't accept more than ten rounds while it's assembled, then it's permanently a 10 round mag. Once it's disassembled it's not a magazine anymore.

Basically, it just can't be assembled and have a quick release that will all of a sudden allow +10 rounds. Like having a cotter pin installed. If you have to render the magazine inoperable to switch in between 10 and +10 capacity, then it's a permanent fix IMHO because until it is disassembled and rendered inoperable, it's going to forever remain at a capacity which cannot be changed while still in functioning order.

that's my non-professional opinion anyways

i'll also add that for the cost of materials and the time spent wondering if you can and/or should, you could just buy some 10rd mags and not have to worry. if cosmetics are that important though, you might as well just make it as permanent as you think would satisfy the most liberal, gun hating judge in the state. Who knows, you might end up in front of him/her if you do the wrong thing

[dieselpower]

Impactco,

I'd consider the rivet to be a permanent mod but, I would be very worried about the fact that mag can "accept" additional rounds in the center. I don't see anywhere in the law which indicates that the rounds need to be capable of feeding from the mag. If it can contain more than 10 rounds, I wouldn't do it. But, copper tubing comes in longer lengths.

Doesn't matter those rounds can't feed into the chamber. Its the same as a magazine coupler, or taping magazines together.

1) (2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
You can not be charged with this crime. You owned the drum BEFORE 1/1/2000 Clear

2) (25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds You do not need to worry about this exclusion in the law. You are not considering this anything other then a Large Capacity Magazine. You are NOT selling it, Offering it for sale, transporting it into CA (its here) and you are not leaning it outside of the other exclusion in PC12020. If you want you may REPAIR any DAMAGE you do, limiting it with a copper tube and rivet is damage. It need not be addressed as permanent anyway.

3) 12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

The loaded ammunition that can feed into the chamber must be 10 or less

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/02ade10e-5955-4a1a-b2fd-30ba11af0969/1/hilite/

read AG replies.
A magazine is a feeding device that feeds into a chamber
A1.11
A1.22
A1.23
A1.31
A1.36
A1.37

(d) The following definitions shall apply under this section:
(1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device. (2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

Once again this is pointed at the magazine, FEEDING device not the capacity of the drum itself. If only 10 rounds can feed, it doesnt matter if the drum can also be used as ammo STORAGE.

B1.17
B1.28
B1.44 <-- a good comment for storage not being feeding.

[Fate]

When the magazine is being disassembled with no tools whatsoever, who's going to believe who when it comes to saying what's permanent? I'm going to believe the DA.

The DA doesn't even have to put the magazine back together. All he has to do is show your statements saying that you put together a magazine, and that your modification was in absolutely no way whatsoever permanent.

Now if the DA had to bring in a hammer, set of punches, and a drill, you've got a strong case.

That's why I only block my legally owned old USGI 20 round mags with a plug for use in the BB'd AR I have (I prefer featureless though). Those straight body 20 round magazine floorplates don't come off without using a tool.

[Bhobbs]

Your "standard" passes absolutely no legal logic or smell test whatsoever.

If you have a magazine that is a 30rd magazine except for the inclusion of an easily removed block that just requires disassembly of the magazine and would require no tools whatsoever, there is *NO WAY* any judge is going to see that as "permanent".

On top of that you have the PC that says something to the effect of "This shall not construe to apply to a large-capacity magazine that has been PERMANENTLY ALTERED to accept 10 rounds or less"

Telling a judge that you "permanently altered" that large-capacity magazine by putting a plastic block in it is not going to keep you out of jail. Especially when the DA goes "look! <takes it apart with his hands, removes the block, and puts it back together> TADA! A large-capacity magazine!"

Yes, the judge would be guilty of manufacturing a hi cap. The judge could just as easily take your parts kit and do the same thing. Does that make it an illegal hi cap mag?

If the magazine has to be taken apart to a legal parts kit and reassembled, how is that not a permanent modification?

[watsonville]

30rd shotgun i gotta see this

[Mac7504]