I don't think this AR Pistol is legal

[MasterYong]

So let's say hypothetically an FFL is selling one of those Para AR pistols (the one without the buffer tube -snazzy!). This pistol has a 30 round magazine inserted and no bullet button.

But wait there's more!

This pistol has a tag on it that says "Law Enforcement Only."

Let's say this FFL hypothetically thinks that it's OK to sell this to LEOs because LEOs aren't bound by the roster. I'm under the impression that any pistol in CA with a mag outside the pistol grip and no BB is an AW, and could only be purchased if the purchaser is an LEO that has a letter from the CLEO.

I'm also under the impression that an FFL would have to have an AW permit to sell weapons configured in this way, even to LEOs.

Well, let's say this FFL doesn't have the credentials to sell AWs.

Isn't there a pretty serious law being broken in this hypothetical situation?

What would someone do to convince this FFL they may be breaking the law?

[wildhawker]

This retailer needs to take corrective action immediately.

If they are unwilling to listen to non-lawyers, he could consult a firearms attorney such as Jason Davis or Don Kilmer.

You may also wish to print out the handgun AW flowchart, here: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

If DOJ takes corrective action for him, it will not be a pleasant experience.

-Brandon

So let's say hypothetically an FFL is selling one of those Para AR pistols (the one without the buffer tube -snazzy!). This pistol has a 30 round magazine inserted and no bullet button.

But wait there's more!

This pistol has a tag on it that says "Law Enforcement Only."

Let's say this FFL hypothetically thinks that it's OK to sell this to LEOs because LEOs aren't bound by the roster. I'm under the impression that any pistol in CA with a mag outside the pistol grip and no BB is an AW, and could only be purchased if the purchaser is an LEO that has a letter from the CLEO.

I'm also under the impression that an FFL would have to have an AW permit to sell weapons configured in this way, even to LEOs.

Well, let's say this FFL doesn't have the credentials to sell AWs.

Isn't there a pretty serious law being broken in this hypothetical situation?

What would someone do to convince this FFL they may be breaking the law?

[MasterYong]

This retailer needs to take corrective action immediately.

If they are unwilling to listen to non-lawyers, he could consult a firearms attorney such as Jason Davis or Don Kilmer.

You may also wish to print out the handgun AW flowchart, here: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

If DOJ takes corrective action for him, it will not be a pleasant experience.

-Brandon

Yeah...... about that flowchart.

This FFL may be convinced it doesn't apply to LEOs. He may also be convinced that his buddy at the DOJ said it was Ok to have this pistol in this configuration.

I mostly wanted to confirm I was correct before I risked damaging my relationship with this FFL by arguing more vehemently that I'm right.

[dfletcher]

Kind of a sensitive subject. I've seen interesting stuff - Broomhandle Mausers with shoulder stocks, AR7 pistol, a 20 round fixed magazine, SBR. It brings up the generic "how do you politely say to the gun store owner he may be in violation of CA law, but do so in a way that is not presumptuous and preserves a dignity for all - since one way or another someone is going to be shown to be mistaken?"

One of the only times I've done it was at a store I regularly visit and from which I buy. I think that's important. It involved an AR 7 pistol - 22 rimfire with the mag outside the grip. An AW in CA. I politely asked "is that an AR7?" and got a yes. Hmm - can I buy that in CA? and got a sure why not? I then mentioned the mag outside the grip and got a "well, it's only a 22" and I answered "does that makes a difference?" and the owner responded "you know - you could be right, I'll have to look it up. Don't want to get in trouble for a $60.00 pistol".

I think being polite, not being too certain or full of yourself, doing it away from any customer and choosing your words in such a way that the gun store owner is the one reaching the conclusion - not being "told the law" by someone who just walked in - can work.

There are some places I wouldn't even try - maybe in that situation get their fax number & send them the law with a brief "FYI - regarding your AR pistol"?

[ke6guj]

Yeah...... about that flowchart.

This FFL may be convinced it doesn't apply to LEOs. He may also be convinced that his buddy at the DOJ said it was Ok to have this pistol in this configuration.

I mostly wanted to confirm I was correct before I risked damaging my relationship with this FFL by arguing more vehemently that I'm right.

when I helped design that flowchart, I took into account any "LEO exemptions" that might apply to it regarding the handgun as it sits there in front of you. The only personal LEO exemption would be if it was registered as an AW.

There is a roster exemption for LEOs, but the flowchart doesn't deal with roster issues in order to purchase, just the legality of it as it sits there.

[ke6guj]

the pistol AW regs apply to rimfire pistols as well as centerfire pistols.

[1911su16b870]

If LE has a chiefs AW letter for said AR pistol then I think LE is GTG. It would then be a RAW.

That dealer would have to be a CA registered AW dealer to have that item.

[ETD1010]

the pistol AW regs apply to rimfire pistols as well as centerfire pistols.

We had a guy come in with an awesome looking Benelli .22 pistol (MP95 something). I cleared it, picked up, and then suddenly realized the magazine was outside the pistol grip. . . I took a second to let it set in and politely told the owner that we cannot sell this pistol for him since it was considered an assault weapon. he told me that he bought it long ago before any ban and didn't know anything about a registration period or that it was a problem. Another customer mentioned "but it's a .22" and I had to show him the regs that do not specify centerfire for pistols (as they do for rifles).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_MP_95E_22LR

[ke6guj]

The Benelli MP95 is specifically listed as exempt from the AW regs due to its Olympic pistol design.



12276.1(c) "Assault weapon" does not include either of the following:

(2) Any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with the significant public purpose expressed in subdivision (b):
MANUFACTURER MODEL CALIBER
BENELLI MP90 .22LR
BENELLI MP90 .32 S&W LONG
BENELLI MP95 .22LR
BENELLI MP95 .32 S&W LONG

[dieselpower]

Yeah...... about that flowchart.

This FFL may be convinced it doesn't apply to LEOs. He may also be convinced that his buddy at the DOJ said it was Ok to have this pistol in this configuration.

I mostly wanted to confirm I was correct before I risked damaging my relationship with this FFL by arguing more vehemently that I'm right.

please tell me he has this in writting...christmas is so close, I would love it if we give Gene an early gift.

[stix213]

Sounds like the correct tag for the pistol would be "For Felons Only"

[Deadred7o7]

Redwood Marine???????

[MasterYong]

Redwood Marine???????

Didn't you read the op? It's a hypothetical question.

[MasterYong]

Does anyone have a printable copy of the pistol flow chart? The one online is much better than the one I printed out in the past and may be more useful.

That being said, the one hosted here on CG prints outside the margins (the pdf is set to go to the very edge) and I don't have the software to shrink it. Anyone have one that will print without cutting off the pertinent info?

[ke6guj]

the copy hosted on CG is printable on 8.5"x11" paper. Adobe Reader will shrink it to fit the paper (around 96% IIRC). There is a lot of info on the handgun and shotgun flowcharts, so they do print small.