Do Gypsy Gun Dealers Hurt Us?

[roysclockgun]

Hello all,
I am new to this forum.
Here in Florida, I regularly attend flea markets. Lately there has been an increase in the dealers that set-up every week and sell firearms. I have asked everyone that I see if he maintains any sort of license to sell firearms. None do! Nearly all claim that they do not need any license to sell firearms in the state of Florida. One dealer told me today that as long as you are "some kind of collector", you can set up at flea markets and sell guns! I have witnessed some of these dealers taking cash, handing over the firearm and no paperwork is completed. I realize that they are operating outside the law, unless they truly are collectors just unloading their own, personal collection and even then, they should be keeping a log of who bought what. However, in most cases, I see the inventory change week to week and I know that these people are buying and selling firearms with no FFL and no log kept.
Does anyone else agree with me that these sorts of illegal dealers hurt all of us who maintain an FFL and buy and sell within the laws of our state and the BATF?
Best,
Steven

[stphnman20]

I thought you need an FFL to sell guns no matter what state your in.

Btw, welcome to the forum.

[Peter.Steele]

I used to live in Florida, saw this happen all the time. There is (or was, anyway) no requirement for private sales to go through an FFL, so long as it's face to face. Actually, in most of the rest of the country, you can go to teh classified ads, see a gun advertised there, and go meet with the guy and buy it from him with no paperwork.

That's basically how these people are operating. They're selling the guns, yes, but legally they are privately owned, and being sold privately.

[Kharn]

You're not allowed to operate as a business without the appropriate FFL, a C&R is not a business FFL so there's always a few people just waiting to be caught selling a ton of Mosins, etc, but you are allowed to sell from your private collection as long as you aren't acquiring arms with the intent to sell them in the near future. If you think someone is in violation, give them an FFL application packet and explain the risks they're taking.

And I'm not sure 'gypsy gun dealer' is the correct term, even the Bradys do not use such a loaded name.

[PolishMike]

As long as they are not buying guns TO sell them.

[zinfull]

I guess I have to visit Florida.

jerry

[ocspeedracer]

Does anyone else agree with me that these sorts of illegal dealers hurt all of us who maintain an FFL and buy and sell within the laws of our state and the BATF?Best,
Steven

No don't agree. I would guess most of these people are well within the law, and wish ppt's were as easy in CA. Also, if I'm going to buy a new gun, that's not just on a whim, I do my research and then order it as it's impossible to find nice weapons at a dealer here in Socal. I can't just go in somewhere and buy a wilson, baer, nighthawk, certain Springfields, even Rugers most times, etc.

Now when I buy a Glock, ya they might loose some money as who cares if one of them has been well fed, so I'd get it the cheapest way possible. Also remember we're price gouged out here, so a new Glock would cost $625 and up, and frankly, that sucks.

Also, and I hope to eat these words but I think you may turn into Obvious troll. I would prefer even FFL's to not keep a log, I don't feel the gov't or anyone should have the authority to keep tabs on me beyond me paying taxes, and I pay too much of those anyway.

[Dr Rockso]

I've seen the same thing out of state...same guys every week with an inventory of 50+ NIB handguns that never seems to get depleted even though they've been selling off their 'personal collection' for years. Eventually something bad is going to happen, the media is going to get a hold of it, and laws surrounding private sales are likely to get a lot stricter for the rest of the country. All thanks to a-holes like that.

[CSACANNONEER]

This used to be very common in California too. It wasn't until about '91 that things changed for us. I remember the good ol' days when every newspaper (including the SF Chronical) had a rather large firearms section in the classifieds and most gunshow vendors did not have FFLs. Even though what you are describing is not taking place at a gunshow, it is a perfect example of "the gunshow loop hole" that the antis always beach about.

[CHS]

This is called by the Brady Bunch the "gun show loophole".

However, if this person truly is operating as a business, then he should technically be a licensed dealer.

Being from Florida, what exactly was your point though here on a CA gun forum?

[dfletcher]

I believe FL Resident A selling his gun directly to FL Resident B is legal in FL and legal federally. Engaging in the business of selling firearms is the concern and one, I think, these folks could be dinged on.

If they are selling to residents of a state other than FL (or if they are not residents of FL and are selling to FL residents) that is a separate violation of federal law.

Engaging in the business without a Type 01 FFL and (if occuring) selling other than "resident to resident" probably isn't good advertising - it makes for a very good "gotcha moment" on TV too.

[gunn]

When I last spoke to some friends in Austin (which also allows for private party person to person sales), he told me that the BATFE had actually cracked down on folks who were "engaging in the BUSINESS" of selling guns without a license.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before these regular folks get caught.
It's one thing to sell your guns face to face -- I'm totally cool with such an action. I'm even OK with an individual downsizing their collection justifying the price of renting a table at a flea market/gunshow.

However, it's another thing entirely if you do this every month. IMO, that wouldn't be very hard. Just go to a gunshow, find out who has rented a table (perhaps from the organizer), and compare this to a list of folks who rented at the previous show (or the one before). It wouldn't be very hard to prove.
-g

[blerg]

Just out of a curiosity: do those dealers charge a premium because no paperwork/ background check is required? If so , it may indicate that some buyers are willing to pay more to not have them checked.

[M. D. Van Norman]

[roysclockgun]

I posted the question.
Okay, to answer some questions: My 01FFL is listed under my name, Steven L. Ashe anyone who doubts me can look up my 01FFL on the BATF list.

Do the outside-the-law gun sellers at the flea markets have inflated prices on what they are selling? I have to say that in the main, they do. I have haggled with a fair number of them, but they start their prices so high that I cannot buy from them. Example this morning : A cut-down British Enfield No. 4 Mk. I for $250!! The hand guns that I have seen them sell, cash and go, are even more inflated in price.

Why do not turn them in? I have never been a snitch and at age 68, am not going to be a snitch. I have held an 01FFL for over 25 years, both in Maryland and now, in Florida. I do look back with fondness on the old days when firearms were traded freely with no paperwork, but now that keeping paperwork is the law, I do it because I do not want my guns seized and my trading days ended. I had a clock shop in Maryland and sold guns on the side. In order to sell guns out of my clock shop, I had to get an 01FFL.

Why did I post on a CA. forum? I came home angry from the flea market and wanted to vent and this is the first forum that I found that claimed to be made up of FFL people. Sorry if you feel that I am intruding on CA. territory. I do send guns to CA. and jump through the extra hoops the CA. has established.

Are the people whom I mentioned breaking the law? Absolutely, they are. I have read and reread the "big book" from BATF dealing with what they are doing. The selling off of a private collection is a very narrow ruling, dealing with firearms that were gathered for the private use of the owner for whatever use he puts them to. When and if he decides to sell, he may sell them face to face to another resident of his state, PROVIDED that he is not breaking state laws. Maryland, for instance, allows NO hand gun transfers except through a Maryland license handgun dealer. If I am going to give my son a WWII war trophy Luger in Maryland, I must take the Luger to a Maryland licensed hand gun dealer and have him log it into his books. Then, my son can go to the shop and have the Luger logged out to him. Last time I heard, most Maryland dealers were charging $75.00 as a fee for handling the transfer, which I consider criminal usery, but what is one to do but pay IF one wants to abide by the law.
Getting back to the selling off a private collection : As soon as the private seller acquires more guns to add to his collection and begins to sell them off, he is on very shaky ground, as it may be shown in court that he acquired the newer purchases strictly to resell same.

These guys whom I mentioned seeing again this morning, just as I see them nearly every Weds. morning are dealing guns outside the law. They have set up every Weds. with gun tables at this flea market, for over a year now. I have tracked this, because it bothers me that I must pay for the FFL, allow BATF agents into any part of my home at any time, pay overhead for security, pay the $5.00 instant check fee here in Florida each time I sell, put in much time to maintain records and store same, while these guys at the flea market do none of that. My guess is that the BATF is too busy trying to stop terrorists to bother with scoff-law gun dealers in Florida.
Three dealers that I have watched, have taken cash and handed over the firearm, having filled out no paperwork. This I have observed occuring with both hand guns and long guns over more than a year.

Heck, I would love to return to the days before the '68 gun laws got the ball rolling. I used to advertise guns in the Baltimore Sunpaper on Sundays and start receiving phone calls from buyers on Saturday, when the bulldog edition hit the streets. One of my favorite places to buy guns was in the local bar, where patrons knew that I paid cash for most any firearm. I would buy firearms all week and sell them out of the newspaper on Saturday and Sunday. No bookwork at all! Today, the Baltimore Sunpaper will not accept classified gun ads. Of course, they still take the expensive retail gun ads. I lived in the best of times. It is all over.
Steven