LAX Gun Range Heads up - Gun(w/Cable Lock)+Loaded magazine in same case ????

[PixelBender]

I went to LAX range today, and upon entry was asked if I was law enforcement. I responded "No, is there something wrong?"

The guy behind the counter replied "California law states that you can not have loaded magazines near your firearm."

Umm.. that sounds a lot like the 12031 Felony Hot Stop BS where they try to say that because you have a pistol (unloaded) and magzines (opposite hip) you are infact in possession of a "loaded" firearm. This video explains that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaULjgvZvk0

OK, so my understanding, is that in California, you are allowed to transport a firearm, in your trunk, so long as its locked(whether it be a locked case, OR locked firearm) and unloaded (No magazine, in the gun). It is legal to have a loaded magazine, in lets say your range bag, or case, again, as long as its not in the gun. RIGHT?

Heres my setup.

XD9 (locked using Cable lock)
Case
Cable lock
2x10rnd mags (topped off, Not in firearm)
In my trunk.
I live in Los Angeles.

Is this legal? If its not, what are my options?
I appreciate your help and in the mean time I'll take a look around to see if this has been discussed. I dont know if my situation is unique or not. shrugs.

Thanks for your help,
-Justin

[the_quark]

This is a persistent myth. There was a bad case many years ago that found someone guilty of carrying loaded because he had rounds in the magazine, but it's not true under the law, and it's not true as it's enforced, now. I don't recall if the underlying law was overturned, or if the decision was.

Unfortunately, some people heard this, years ago (it was in How To Own a Gun in California and Stay out of Jail) and never learned it's no longer true. It's definitely the case that you can lock your firearm and a loaded magazine in the same container. Heck, under the law, you can put the firearm loose in the trunk with a loaded magazine, and it's clearly "in a locked container" (the trunk) and unloaded.

[nick]

It's FUD. Check out People vs. Clark, which elaborated on what's legally considered to be loaded in CA.

Which in that case the definition of loaded was "round in the chamber and ready to fire", your way is way safer, sicne there's no loaded mag in the magwell. So, FUD.

[PixelBender]

Ok so.. jsut to refresh my self, and others... Here is the snipit from the People Vs. Clark case in 1996 which is where 12031 stemmed from.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in
a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Section E:
In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the
purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to
examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Section G:
A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or
attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not
limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm.

So..... Yeah. Next time I'll just be more specific than just mentioning "12031"

"According to the People V Clark, PC 12031 section 'G' states that the magazine, if loaded, must be in the firearm to constitute a loaded gun."

Now before I think I just graduated from Mountain View Law School - Via Google, I'm correct in saying that my understanding of the law is in fact correct?

[PixelBender]

Quick question.. What does "FUD" mean???

Also, I know with open carry i can carry and unlocked firearm on my right hip, and my magzines LOADED on my left hip. I'm transporting in the trunk of my car, in a case, with a cable locked pistol, and magazines in the same case.

lame. I asked if this was a range policy and he started to explain that its a california law and a felony if I get caught. I wasnt going to argue and again said "if its range policy I'll follow through with your request"

Thanks for everyones quick response. Calguns is ALWAYS a great community rich with information and great people.

[CCWFacts]

I went to LAX range today, and upon entry was asked if I was law enforcement. I responded "No, is there something wrong?"

The guy behind the counter replied "California law states that you can not have loaded magazines near your firearm."

I've had the same interaction ("are you law enforcement? you have loaded mags? you're breaking the law!!!") at just about every range I've ever been to in California, including LAX range.

I wish FFLs and related businesses would get on board with our fight. They seem to be willfully apathetic about gun issues, unfortunately. The LA Gun Store once told me "we don't like to get involved in politics". Well guess what, if you're selling guns in California, you are involved in politics, and pretending you are not just means you've decided to lose the game. LA Guns did in fact lose the game and is no longer an FFL; look how much good "we're not involved" did them.

[Ed_Hazard]

Ok so.. jsut to refresh my self, and others... Here is the snipit from the People Vs. Clark case in 1996 which is where 12031 stemmed from.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in
a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Section E:
In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the
purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to
examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Section G:
A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or
attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not
limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm.
So..... Yeah. Next time I'll just be more specific than just mentioning "12031"

"According to the People V Clark, PC 12031 section 'G' states that the magazine, if loaded, must be in the firearm to constitute a loaded gun."

Now before I think I just graduated from Mountain View Law School - Via Google, I'm correct in saying that my understanding of the law is in fact correct?

Well could they argue that the way this is interepreted (bold) the magazine is considered part of the firearm because it is in the case. And since it is "attached" to the firearm it could be considered a loaded firearm?

[the_quark]

Quick question.. What does "FUD" mean???

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. It comes from the software industry, where, if your competitor comes out with some product you can't compete with, you might go out and try to convince customers that it's unproven, has potential pitfalls, etc., etc.

'Round here, we use it when someone says something is illegal when it's fine.

[cmth]

People v. Clark is all you need. Also, ditch the cable lock. It is legally worthless outside of a home with minor children. It is not an authorized method of securing a firearm for PC 12025 and 626.9.

[Ed_Hazard]

People v. Clark is all you need. Also, ditch the cable lock. It is legally worthless outside of a home with minor children. It is not an authorized method of securing a firearm for PC 12025 and 626.9.

What if you use the cable lock to lock the case that the gun will be transported in? Would'nt that meet the locked container requirement?

[PixelBender]

@ Ed_Hazard

Accoridng to the 12031 videos I've been watching, they mention that the case they use has zippers. The zippers have the big holes at the top of the taba and the little holes near the bottom. In this video, they mention that locking the TOP HOLES is not considered a locked case. Being able to put a couple fingers in there isnt considered lock. They are playing it safe, I'm sure, but if their example is playing it safe, I dont want to know how the cable lock through the case hole would hold in court.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1szBxnAEsMw

(1:50) Carry Case and storage

I too tried that, and it doesn't do much in the way of securing/locking the case due to its pliable nature.

I was at bestbuy the other night, and found an enCase (iPad case) that would have been perfect for my pistol, but it was like $45 for a piece of neoprene/wetsuit garbage.

Any one have any suggestions in the ways of cases? Lugging this plastic box around that has "Springfield Armory" stamped on the side is getting old. It screams "I HAVE A GUN."


As for the politics behind the LA ranges, I 100% agree that change comes from education. Its sad to think that this guy was so sure of himself. I think arguing about it is by no means a method of education. Next time I go to the range, I'll be sure to bring some of those 12031 pamphlets and give him one if he gives me flak, being that when I asked if it was a range policy, he only stated it was California law, which (Broken record....) its not.

Take care and thanks again everyone.
Should I move the storage case question to another category?

[nick]

I've had the same interaction ("are you law enforcement? you have loaded mags? you're breaking the law!!!") at just about every range I've ever been to in California, including LAX range.

I wish FFLs and related businesses would get on board with our fight. They seem to be willfully apathetic about gun issues, unfortunately. The LA Gun Store once told me "we don't like to get involved in politics". Well guess what, if you're selling guns in California, you are involved in politics, and pretending you are not just means you've decided to lose the game. LA Guns did in fact lose the game and is no longer an FFL; look how much good "we're not involved" did them.

Well, he is quite involved in politics now, trying to sue LAPD Gun Unit and all. I hope he'll succeed, too.

[nick]

Well could they argue that the way this is interepreted (bold) the magazine is considered part of the firearm because it is in the case. And since it is "attached" to the firearm it could be considered a loaded firearm?

Nope, that's precisely what People vs. Clark clarified.

[nick]

Any one have any suggestions in the ways of cases? Lugging this plastic box around that has "Springfield Armory" stamped on the side is getting old. It screams "I HAVE A GUN."

Check online or at gun stores, there're lots of good cases. You can also get one of those locked steel cases, they can be used to many different purposes, and they cost around $30.

You can also get a range bag, especially if you carry more than one handgun. I personally favor the Tac Force ones below, but there're many great range bags in all sizes:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp;jsessionid=XIBJIGELRTC3TLAQBBICCNVMCAEFCIWE?id=0054133229161a&type=product&cmCat=perf&rid=0987654321&cm_mmc=Performics-_-CSE-_-nextag-_-0054133229161a&mr:referralID=2d592359-c44a-11df-ad8e-001b2166c62d&_requestid=302679

Turner's has them on sale for $49.99 every now and then.

[Arondos]

Correct me if I am wrong but if you lock the case in your trunk no further lock is required correct?

Still can't have a magazine in the weapon but a loaded magazine can be in the case with the weapon.

I drive a hatchback (no trunk) no I use a locked bag when going to the range so I don't have to put a lock on each case.