Kel-Tec P11 - Question

[Stainned]

My father passed away a couple months ago. He lived in Arizona. Can I legally transfer his P11 to myself?

I have searched but am quite confused.
Thanks
C-

[OleCuss]

So far as I know, you can just bring it home with you and then register it here in California (within 30 days).

If it has any magazines with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds - you can't bring those in.

For a great summary of the information on this, here's a link to an excellent post from another active thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...47&postcount=7

[ETD1010]

So far as I know, you can just bring it home with you and then register it here in California (within 30 days).

If it has any magazines with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds - you can't bring those in.

For a great summary of the information on this, here's a link to an excellent post from another active thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...47&postcount=7

NO, no ,no! Since the handgun must cross state lines, ATF requires it to be transferred via an FFL. The pistol in question, however, is exempt from the roster since it's a father to son transfer. The Self registration is only valid on an intrafamiliar transfer where BOTH parties are residents of California.

[bwiese]

My father passed away a couple months ago. He lived in Arizona. Can I legally transfer his P11 to myself?

If you're validly inheriting the gun - i.e., if your're willed/bequeathed the gun or your dad passed without a
will and you acquire it thru 'intestate succession' - then you can have the gun.

In this case, no FFL is required since the originating party is dead and it's his estate:

Follow these steps:

1. If you don't have a current/valid HSC card (they're good for 5
   yrs) go to a CA gunshop, take a simple gun safety test, pay
   $25. You need a valid HSC card to get your gun into CA.
   .
2. Go fetch your dad's gun. (In theory it could be shipped to you
   but that likely won't happen with all the shipping rules and
   UPS/FedEx lack of understanding their own rules.) Or, the
   estate executor could bring the gun to you.
   .
3. Within 30 days of taking possession of the gun and having it
   in CA, go file a DOJ Firearms Bureau "Operation of Law" form
   to register your new handgun. I believe it's a $19 fee.

[bwiese]

NO, no ,no! Since the handgun must cross state lines, ATF requires it to be transferred via an FFL. The pistol in question, however, is exempt from the roster since it's a father to son transfer. The Self registration is only valid on an intrafamiliar transfer where BOTH parties are residents of California.

WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.

Inheritance/bequest of firearms, even across state lines, is exempt from using an FFL per Federal law.
CA law also echoes this. See my post above for correct process.

[ETD1010]

WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.

Inheritance/bequest of firearms, even across state lines, is exempt from using an FFL per Federal law.
CA law also echoes this. See my post above for correct process.

We got smacked around by the ATF for trying to argue that last time. They told me that any time it crosses state lines, they needs to be through an FFL. I have no problem being wrong here. I'm just concerned at this point since they seemed to make such a strong statement making sure we didnt' spread illegal info. . . Can you guide me to the PC/laws regarding the different circumstances of an standard intrafamiliar transfer and an inheritance/bequest.

[Stainned]

Would the below still apply if his wife was to give it to me?
Thanks,
C-

If you're validly inheriting the gun - i.e., if your're willed/bequeathed the gun or your dad passed without a
will and you acquire it thru 'intestate succession' - then you can have the gun.

In this case, no FFL is required since the originating party is dead and it's his estate:

Follow these steps:

1. If you don't have a current/valid HSC card (they're good for 5
   yrs) go to a CA gunshop, take a simple gun safety test, pay
   $25. You need a valid HSC card to get your gun into CA.
   .
2. Go fetch your dad's gun. (In theory it could be shipped to you
   but that likely won't happen with all the shipping rules and
   UPS/FedEx lack of understanding their own rules.) Or, the
   estate executor could bring the gun to you.
   .
3. Within 30 days of taking possession of the gun and having it
   in CA, go file a DOJ Firearms Bureau "Operation of Law" form
   to register your new handgun. I believe it's a $19 fee.

[bwiese]

We got smacked around by the ATF for trying to argue that last time. They told me that any time it crosses state lines, they needs to be through an FFL. I have no problem being wrong here. I'm just concerned at this point since they seemed to make such a strong statement making sure we didnt' spread illegal info. . . Can you guide me to the PC/laws regarding the different circumstances of an standard intrafamiliar transfer and an inheritance/bequest.

"We"? Are you an FFL?

You must have an idiot for ATF agent - or you're confusing some transaction variations - intrafamily vs estate/beqeuest.

An interstate "intrafamiliar transfer" indeed requires an FFL. The supplying party is NOT DEAD and thus there's no estate, will, bequest etc. "operation of law" applicable - so an FFL is needed. The Feds don't recognize "intrafamily" transfers; they are ordinary transfers between two people and thus if crossing state lines an FFL is required.

Only the Roster is not applicable to such "interstate intrafamily transfers" since it's intrafamily - but the Feds still require a CA FFL to be used for that transfer when guns/people are across state lines.

However, when the supplying party is indeed DEAD then it's really the estate doing the transfer and driving the inheritance/bequest. At that point, no FFL is needed.

Rule: transferor live, gotta use an FFL; transferor dead, you can go direct.

• 18 USC 922(a)(3) - for Federal exemption not requiring use
  of an FFL in an estate gun moving to lawful recipient (via will,
  bequest, intestate succession).

• 12078PC(i) - for CA 'operation of law' exemption (plus there's
  other paragraphs elsewhere in 12078 intrafamily wording that
  overlap in applicability for dead lineal family members)

[bwiese]

Would the below still apply if his wife was to give it to me?
Thanks,
C-

If the estate has very recently disposed of assets and you just haven't gotten there to pick it up, fine. The wife is just safekeeping it for you for a bit.

If a real long, long time has passed the wife could be regarded as the owner of the gun and then you'd best run it thru an FFL - but then it's a P11 and not on the Roster and you couldn't get it then - since it's no longer inheritance and instead is transfer from the woman to you.

[Stainned]

Oh boy. There is no estate to dispose of per say. He left no will, and had no real assets in his name. The pistol is registered to him. He had a massive unexpected heart attack so he had no will.

Thank you for all your input.
C-

If the estate has very recently disposed of assets and you just haven't gotten there to pick it up, fine. The wife is just safekeeping it for you for a bit.

If a real long, long time has passed the wife could be regarded as the owner of the gun and then you'd best run it thru an FFL - but then it's a P11 and not on the Roster and you couldn't get it then - since it's no longer inheritance and instead is transfer from the woman to you.

[bwiese]

Oh boy. There is no estate to dispose of per say. He left no will, and had no real assets in his name. The pistol is registered to him. He had a massive unexpected heart attack so he had no will.

Thank you for all your input.
C-

It can be regarded as part of estate disposal.

Go pick it up.

[Stainned]

Thank you, I really appreaciate your input. This means a lot to me.
Chris

[ETD1010]

"We"? Are you an FFL?

You must have an idiot for ATF agent - or you're confusing some transaction variations - intrafamily vs estate/beqeuest.

Yes, part of an FFL: Uncle Paul's Exchange in Ventura. I'm going to presume I'm confusing something they said to me. The last ATF inspector was pretty on the ball, and when they weren't 100% on something, they looked up the regs to be sure (since I asked a million questions). Thanks for the info Bill.

[Quiet]

We got smacked around by the ATF for trying to argue that last time. They told me that any time it crosses state lines, they needs to be through an FFL. I have no problem being wrong here. I'm just concerned at this point since they seemed to make such a strong statement making sure we didnt' spread illegal info. . . Can you guide me to the PC/laws regarding the different circumstances of an standard intrafamiliar transfer and an inheritance/bequest.

Exemption to Federal laws in bold.

18 USC 922except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;