Need some help guys, shipping a firearm to a FFL direct.

[jandmtv]

Ok here is the deal, I have this gun store commando who is really pissing me off about something, and I want to show him that he is wrong so I need your help.

He is claiming that an individual can not ship a handgun to a FFL direct, and that he has to go through another ffl in his area to ship the firearm. He even went as far as saying its a felony and I should report you to the DOJ.

So say you sell a gun to someone in Cali, you goto UPS and tell them its a handgun and ship it legally to a FFL via next day air, they get it and are refusing to complete the transfer saying it was sent to us illegaly, we are sending it back, or we will report you to the DOJ, what do you do to convince this guy that he is full of ****?

Where can I find the law that says its legal to ship to a FFL direct?

thanks for any help.

[JDay]

You can't ship handguns through the Postal Service, those have to go through a common carrier such as Fedex or UPS. This website has more information and the relevant part of United States Code is below.

http://www.thegunzone.com/ship-guns.html

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922(a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

[jandmtv]

It was shipped UPS next day air. I know about the USPS policy.

[JDay]

http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

U.S.C. 922(a)2(A)

this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

U.S.C. 922(e)

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

27 CFR 178.31

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE
TREASURY

PART 178--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge
or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or
receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply
in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond
shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

[tenpercentfirearms]

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2

I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?
No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.

If it were illegal, then the CA DOJ's CFLC FAQ wouldn't say a non-FFL wouldn't need a CFLC, it would say a non-FFL couldn't send a firearm. Note non-FFLs do not need a CFLC approval number when shipping FFLs a gun.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

And there are the federal guidelines that state it is also perfectly legal.

I would recommend printing up these two references and taking them in to the gun shop commando.

[jandmtv]

Thanks guys, I think I have everything I need to make my case. I wonder how he is going to react now. I have a feeling he is just going to tell me he is still right and that I have no idea what Im talking about. You know how gun store commandos are.

[taloft]

Tell him to go ahead and report you to the DOJ. They'll just tell him to pound sand and you'll have your answer.

[jandmtv]

Oh I did. I faxed him a copy of the above and a note on the bottom asking him to call the DOJ and fax them a copy of what I sent him just to see that I was right in the first place.

[Deadred7o7]

tag let us know what happens.

[paul0660]

And if he doesn't straighten out, let us know who he is.

[bwiese]

Ok here is the deal, I have this gun store commando who is really pissing me off about something, and I want to show him that he is wrong so I need your help.

He is claiming that an individual can not ship a handgun to a FFL direct, and that he has to go through another ffl in his area to ship the firearm. He even went as far as saying its a felony and I should report you to the DOJ.

So say you sell a gun to someone in Cali, you goto UPS and tell them its a handgun and ship it legally to a FFL via next day air, they get it and are refusing to complete the transfer saying it was sent to us illegaly, we are sending it back, or we will report you to the DOJ, what do you do to convince this guy that he is full of ****?

Where can I find the law that says its legal to ship to a FFL direct?

Generally, you can't find laws that say things are legal - laws generally define what's illegal. And we then have the old maxim, "that which is not prohibited is permitted."

You're just the victim of gunshop lore. An individual can ship a regular handgun to most any FFL in the US (possible exceptions for NYC? and some weird East Coast stuff that makes us look like paradise here...)

The one exception is for reg'd AWs, which must be shipped out of CA via a CAL FFL holding an AW permit (though they could be driven to Reno or Phoenix and then shipped from there without grief)

Please tell that FFL that Bill Wiese from Calguns says he's full of BS.

[jandmtv]

Ohh this is priceless. I just got off the phone with the guy, first thing he said was "before you go off at me, I called the DOJ and you were right, You can ship a firearm direct without going through a FFL. Im sorry I was wrong and I have already completed the transfer, I meant to call you and tell you but didnt get the chance."

Thanks guys, another ignorant gun store commando educated!
jandmtv

[CSACANNONEER]

While it is clearly not a felony, mistomeaner nor an infraction. It might be against that store's policy. So, now that it is there, either they will have to ship it back to yous policy (not legal), not accept it in the first place (legal) or, accept it and transfer it to the new owner. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[CSACANNONEER]

Ohh this is priceless. I just got off the phone with the guy, first thing he said was "before you go off at me, I called the DOJ and you were right, You can ship a firearm direct without going through a FFL. Im sorry I was wrong and I have already completed the transfer, I meant to call you and tell you but didnt get the chance."

Thanks guys, another ignorant gun store commando educated!
jandmtv

You should also give him credit for admitting his mistake! I know a lot of people who would have not admitted their mistake.

[jandmtv]

Oh I give him credit, its just that he was so quick to call me a felon the first time we spoke, and now he was quick to shut me up to say sorry, just funny is all.