Shipping "non-essential" AW parts overseas?

[moab]

I've researched this subject to death. The law basically says you can't export any AW part that is "essential to the operation of the firearm". Yet no one can seem to identify what is "essential" and what is not.

I got a request for a sling loop from an AK type weapon. To be shipped to Canada. Yugo M70 to be exact.

Can anyone point me in the direction of anything concrete as it pertains to essential and non-essential parts?

Several large and small retailers list these requirements in their shipping policy. Some just say "essential" (Numrich I think...) others go so far as to say "even a handguard is essential". Who would be the appropriate legal entity to even ask for clarification on this point?

PLEASE legal types - please weigh in on this?! I have spent hours trying to find a definitive answer to this.

Thank you to any one that can help. I will forever be grateful!!

You can respond privately too if you want - moduspi@gmail.com

[bwiese]

I don't think the issue is "AW"-specific. You generally shouldn't ship gun parts overseas without paperwork/approval - including scopes!

Also, are you really sure he's a foreigner, or an agent acting like one?

I've gotten several reports there have been foreign parties - or agents portraying themselves as such - asking Calguns sellers to ship nonreceiver parts, including barrels, fire control parts, etc. to non-USA destinations. When the seller says to ship the item as "metal parts" or to use an intermediary even when cautioned about legal issues, it's worrisome.

Let the friggin' foreigners fend for themselves.

[Jicko]

Also, many parts have US export restrictions...

I personally wouldn't touch those transactions...

[professorhard]

Prolly just a bad idea...

[moab]

I've said no to anyone wanting parts from overseas. And that is the simple solution just not to do it.

But that does not answer the question "What is a part that is not essential to the operation of a firearm?"

It seems like every time a new law or regulation gets passed the enforcement is such that we just let the gray areas widen and widen. Until there will be no more white areas - just different shades of gray. And we will have passively wiped out every gun right we ever had.

If the law said "no exporting of gun parts" that would be one thing. But it doesn't. It simply lists parts not essential to the operation of the firearm.

I'd still like to know the legal definition of "essential".

[Seesm]

Steer clear fella...

[wilit]

I had to take a training class at work regarding the rules on exporting items as mundane as office supplies overseas. There are a TON of export laws forbidding shipping all sorts of stuff you wouldn't think were a problem. Shipping firearms parts overseas is a quick way to land yourself in a heap of trouble.

[IrishPirate]

Let the friggin' foreigners fend for themselves.

ditto

[hoffmang]

Start here: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati..._official.html

When you give up in abject horror, just stick with the "sorry, too complex" answer.

-Gene

[moab]

The main reason I ask is that it seems like every time new laws or regulations get passed, the enforcement is such, that we are left with ever widening gray areas. Until someday there will be no white areas left. Just different shades of gray.

Gun manufacturers can move overseas and export their products to wherever they wish. Yet companies that choose to stay here and employ Americans - are left with ever more restrictive laws that keep them from being able to sell their products anywhere but here.

This law in-particular seems to have everyone just rolling over. And taking it in stride. As if the law read "no export of gun parts is allowed". When it clearly doesn't say this. And it's not even being discussed. And if you do bring it up everyone is alarmist "Don't ship ANYTHING overseas!" "Let them find their own parts!". Which is ignorant at best. It's not about protecting our parts. It's about losing our rights.

We can buy and import anything we want from overseas (besides receivers and barrels). Yet we are scared into not selling anything overseas. We can buy anything that they pay their citizens to produce. But God forbid we actually market our own citizens wares to those same sellers.

I'd like to know "legally" what we are and are not allowed to ship overseas. "essential" has to have a legal definition somewhere. Yet every single site or companies shipping policy reads as if the law were written saying "no parts". "Essential to the operation" seems a far cry from "no parts at all".

The other reason I ask is I buy and sell things online all the time - of a non-firearm type - to and from overseas. It's a global world we live in now. Even if your only buying audio cables on Ebay. I get asked from time to time to ship gun parts overseas. And I don't. But only because I can't find a legal definition of the difference between the essential parts and the non essential parts.

I think fear of the law is a good thing at times. "Don't build an automatic firearm." That's a clear law that should be feared. But other times it seems like that fear just serves to further limit ourselves. Even more than the government intended.

I got asked to ship a sling swivel to Canada today. I know a sling swivel isn't "essential to the operation" of the firearm I took it off of. But I and everyone else I know is to afraid to ship a sling swivel overseas. Because it's easier to just live in fear and not do anything at all. Rather than to simply ask for clarification.

[moab]

I did get this response on another site. And have asked for specific sites or documents citing these statements. As I have not found them. (I'm about to read your link above, Gene.):

"A gun part can only be exported from the United States by a licenced exporter.
All gun parts are controlled for export. Some gun parts have specific additional controls placed on them.
Receivers, barrels, cylinders, bolts, etc. are specifically controlled. They cannot be exported by a licenced exporter without first obtaining an export permit from the US DOS. This is obtained after the importer submits an import document. A Canadian would get an International Import Certificate (IIC), the US exporter would attach the IIC to the application for the export licence.
Gun parts that are not specifically controlled, firing pins, sights, etc. with a value of less than US$100 for the entire shipment do not require the licenced exporter to obtain an export permit for the shipment, although there is a document called an SED which is filled out. It includes end user restrictions.

The issue is US export controls, under a set of rules called ITAR. International Trafficking in Arms Regulations.
Deptarment of Homeland Security is the enforcement agency...."

[moab]

Start here: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati..._official.html

When you give up in abject horror, just stick with the "sorry, too complex" answer.

-Gene

I've actually read this. And it's not that complex. It's just that no one has given a clear definition of what "essential to the operation of the firearm" means. (I am paraphrasing here. That is basically the wording. My entire house has been so sick with the flu that we even skipped Christmas dinner.)

There are of course export and import documentation requirements for items that are worth more than $100. But above or below that amount your left with the simple requirement that the parts can not be "essential to the operation of the firearm". Some retailers shipping policies state this very loosely. Others say a hand guard is even essential.

We know as gun owners what is "essential" and what is not. But it would be nice to simply have the legal definition of "essential". If not, an opinion letter stating the enforcement criteria under that guideline.

Not that this is a new issue. But sticking our heads in the sand and simply saying "well it's to complicated so just don't do it". Is giving up more rights than the law even intended.

If you can sell a dumbell to someone in Hong Kong? Why can't you sell them a sling swivel? Especially if the law allows for that.

I think as gun owners we far to often crumble to our fears. And are to quick in advising others to do the same. Rather than simply ask for clarification of the rules.

[hoffmang]

Moab,

With all due respect, I can tell you that ITAR is not something to mess with. ITAR rules changed for computer software partially due to me sticking my neck out.

That swing swivel may very well be deemed part of, or equivalent to, a part of an automatic weapon. If you want to get the ITAR export license to send it out, feel free.

Going against your "essential" argument is the fact that it's pretty hard to field an army without slings on their rifles. ATF usually is the delegated entity by the State Department on firearms parts. As such, I'd call the local field office and ask.

-Gene

[moab]

Moab,

With all due respect, I can tell you that ITAR is not something to mess with. ITAR rules changed for computer software partially due to me sticking my neck out.

That swing swivel may very well be deemed part of, or equivalent to, a part of an automatic weapon. If you want to get the ITAR export license to send it out, feel free.

Going against your "essential" argument is the fact that it's pretty hard to field an army without slings on their rifles. ATF usually is the delegated entity by the State Department on firearms parts. As such, I'd call the local field office and ask.

-Gene

"ITAR is not something to mess with"

I assume you mean "not something to go against". Versus "not something to question". As I do think it needs to be questioned. As far as the question "What does "essential" mean specifically?"

Rather than everyone going around afraid of ITAR altogether. We should do a better job of educating ourselves. So that we at least know where the line is. What we've given up. And where the line might move should this wording or the enforcement of it change.

And if you think this doesn't affect you because you don't import or export anything your wrong. I'm sure many companies went out of business if not lost a significant amount of business because of this. Thus fewer jobs. And fewer parts and/or firearms for US citizens. Fewer tax dollars. And another something no longer Made in America.

If we are allowed to export gun parts (say less than $100) we should be exercising that right. Most of the firearms we buy are made overseas. And sold to us by overseas manufacturers. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. I seem to remember reading a similar, if not far off, statistic recently.) Why shouldn't we (our firearms industry) benefit from that same large market luxury. If not each one of us individually.

I understand why some items export are controlled. But if it is not against the law. I don't see why we shouldn't be able to trade with people from other countries. Just like we do everything else that gets listed on Ebay.

Not that Ebay will let us list them. LOL!

[ojisan]

The first thing you have to know is that when you mail in your application to export, the third line of the address is:
"Office of Political Military Affairs"
Therefore, you are guaranteed a fair decision.

Second, look through all this:

Category I—Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat ShotgunsIt also excludes accessories and attachments (e.g., belts, slings, after market rubber grips, cleaning kits) for firearms that do not enhance the usefulness, effectiveness, or capabilities of the firearm, components and parts.