2:15am my wife wakes me up and says, "Get your gun"...

[CSACANNONEER]

If I lived in town, I would not think of carrying a gun outside to confront a drunk or a thief. Belongings can be replaced cheaper than it would cost for an attorney to defend you. Now, living in a remote area, if I go outside to investigate any problem, you better believe that I'm going to take whatever precautions I feel nessassary to provide for the safety of me and my family. Hell, if I ever had to call the SD, I doubt they could be there in less than 30 minutes.

[snobord99]

Personally, I think this is your best bet if you're dead set on confronting the guy (not just yelling at them from inside your house):

1. Confront, but DO NOT show them you have a weapon (but be ready to draw it if you need to). Hopefully, they run away when someone actually goes out and confronts them.

2. If they run, great. If they don't and start coming at you in a threatening manner (and you feel that you're now at risk), THEN pull the gun.

What you want to avoid is getting in the shootout with the guy and allowing them to claim that they were just defending themselves because they saw that you had a gun and thought you were going to shoot. You have to be careful of this. The fact that this happens outside (probably considered in public even if on private property) and that you were not initially threatened will not help your cause. Remember, deadly force is not acceptable to defend property.

[snobord99]

You can use deadly force to effect a citizen's arrest when the perpetrator escalates it to that, even for property crimes.

Use a gun to effect the arrest, bad guy charges you with a screw driver, good shoot.
Use a gun to effect the arrest, bad guy does nothing, you approach in an attempt to detain and he fights you, it escalates to the point to warrant deadly force, good shoot.

The fact that it is for property is irrelevant.

But this ceases to be just protection of property. It may have started that way, but once there's a struggle, it's not just protection of property anymore.

[Liberty1]

The only advice I'd take is to buy this book on CA self defense case law (also covers possession, purchasing guns etc....) It's written in plain English :http://gunlawpress.com/

NO gun or knife carrier (even if only at home) should be without it's council.

Spending $15 now is better than any of the alternatives.

[Ding126]

My father works for a PD in the bay area...He would always say to make sure their in the house before you shoot...not in the yard, back door etc. I'm sure they're are many variables to his information.

[Super Spy]

I've found a garden hose to be quite useful at dealing with stupid teens during the witching hour.....they seem to be afraid of the water.

[Ron-Solo]

You can use deadly force to effect a citizen's arrest when the perpetrator escalates it to that, even for property crimes.

Use a gun to effect the arrest, bad guy charges you with a screw driver, good shoot.

It is no longer a property crime at this point, it is a crime of violence

Use a gun to effect the arrest, bad guy does nothing, you approach in an attempt to detain and he fights you, it escalates to the point to warrant deadly force, good shoot.

No longer a property crime at this point.



The fact that it is for property is irrelevant.

Wrong! As long as it is merely a property crime, deadly force is not appropriate and will land you in jail.

Like I said in my original post, it is IMPOSSIBLE to give a set answer on this question because there are too many variables. Each case will be reviewed on his own merits.

I'm giving my opinion based on 31 years of LE experience and have personally handled over a hundred situations where homeowners were forced to arm themselves. The results were a very broad spectrum, each judged on its own merits. Most had positive outcomes.

FYI, Cops like it when bad guys lose and the good guy comes out on top. Just make sure what you are doing is reasonable for the situation.

As far as we are concerned, you get brownie points in heaven for taking out a bad guy.

[Liberty1]

Use a gun to effect the arrest...

12031 (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

You may carry a loaded firearm IF you are making a lawful arrest. Step out of your house with a loaded firearm to investigate, where 12031 is applicable, without observing a crime for which you could arrest the individual (remember private persons DO NOT get to detain others with only resonable suspicion), and the carrying of a loaded firearm may be unlawful.

417. (a) (1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the
presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon
whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening
manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other
than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30
days.
(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

Point that firearm at your "suspect" without a justified self defense reason, even it you may lawfully arrest that individual, and you may be in violation of unlawful brandishing.

[Serpentine]

If I lived in town, I would not think of carrying a gun outside to confront a drunk or a thief. Belongings can be replaced cheaper than it would cost for an attorney to defend you. Now, living in a remote area, if I go outside to investigate any problem, you better believe that I'm going to take whatever precautions I feel nessassary to provide for the safety of me and my family. Hell, if I ever had to call the SD, I doubt they could be there in less than 30 minutes.

It took the city cops up to 30 minutes to arrive when I called to report burglars breaking into my neighbor's house while they were out of town.

Did I have the means to affect a citizens arrest? Yes. Do I have the level of skill and training to use a firearm (and weapon light or flashlight) in the middle of the night, just awakened, under condition red stress, against an unknown number of perpetrators who's skills, weapons, and tactics are unknown. BIG maybe!

The biggest problem I see here, besides risking my own a**, is where are my misses going to end up? A shotgun slug will go through about nine walls. not to mention that they will bounce and tumble (and kill) for several hundred yards if unimpeded. Buck shot can go through several walls depending on proximity. Pistol calibers go through several walls.

So now I am not just risking my a**, but all of my sleeping neighbors, their children, their property, etc. I'll most likely get shredded in court, if I don't get shot by the bad guys or the cops arriving on the scene, or another neighbor thinking I'm one of the bad guys.

Oh yeah, my neighbor has insurance on his home and cars, and so do I, so what the heck am I doing out here in the dark, in my underwear with my shotgun? Trying to be a stop-loss field claims negotiator for Allstate! LOL!

Call 911, be a good witness, stay on with dispatcher, be invisible to the bad guys. Best to be the eyes and ears - not a hero.

If the fight comes to you, or if it's a life threatening violent crime against another person, that's entirely different.



.

[Creampuff]

LOL....Chose the 9mm with my home defense ammo (PMC ElDorado Starfire 124 grain HP's) locked and loaded. For no other reason than the '9 is new and I haven't had a chance to fire it yet. Sick, huh?

I don't know...I don't think I would used an untested firearm in a situation like this. I would have grabbed whatever has been most reliable first.

[Nodda Duma]

Reading this thread reminds one that here in California, the right to keep and bear arms has been infringed so much that people are afraid to exercise that right. Incorporation will not come soon enough.

-Jason

[ChuckBooty]

I don't know...I don't think I would used an untested firearm in a situation like this. I would have grabbed whatever has been most reliable first.

VERY good point! I had to make a fast decision though and just grabbed.

[snobord99]

Reading this thread reminds one that here in California, the right to keep and bear arms has been infringed so much that people are afraid to exercise that right. Incorporation will not come soon enough.

-Jason

I don't think it's a CA problem. In MANY jurisdictions, you can't claim self defense to defending property. The problem isn't I'm afraid to defend myself with my gun, I'm sure close to none of us would hesitate to do that. The problem is I'm afraid to defend my car with my gun.

[demnogis]

Maybe that's the problem... Too many people are thinking solely that using force is only in terms of self defense. E Pluribus Unum and Liberty1 have already outlined methods of lawful citizen's arrest and detaining a suspect in the commission of a crime.

I don't think it's a CA problem. In MANY jurisdictions, you can't claim self defense to defending property. The problem isn't I'm afraid to defend myself with my gun, I'm sure close to none of us would hesitate to do that. The problem is I'm afraid to defend my car with my gun.

[snobord99]

Maybe that's the problem... Too many people are thinking solely that using force is only in terms of self defense. E Pluribus Unum and Liberty1 have already outlined methods of lawful citizen's arrest and detaining a suspect in the commission of a crime.

But again, that goes beyond just defending property. Using a gun as a sign of force to arrest someone I have no problem with, but you just really have to watch your ***** because there are a millions ways it can turn out bad for you even though what you did may have been legal...

And, to be perfectly honest, I'd use it as self defense under VERY few circumstances. I may use a citizen's arrest at some point, but that probably won't be on the car thief. If I wanted to arrest people for a living, I'd be a cop. For me, a gun is for self defense or as a hobby, not for me to play cops n robbers.