Anti-Gun Politician Uses Gun in Self-Defense...

[H Paul Payne]

By what logic is this guy supposed to be anti gun?

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=5930&type=category&category=37

Don't believe everything you hear on talk radio, or everything you read in right-wing blogs.

Thanks Mitch. I appreciate a reality-check from time-to-time.

Paul

[7x57]

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PERSONAL OPINIONS FOLLOW
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You mean we can't go around saying that the official NRA position is that "The M1 Garand (.30-06) is the ultimate battle rifle"? Darn. It's OK to take positions on trivia like AB962, but "best gun" arguments are serious!

The M1 Garand was the first rifle I ever fired

I just want to add here that Paul is also a 1911 man. Is it possible to be more all-American than that?

BTW, I consider it a nice, firm, push. I don't know anything about those other descriptive terms --------- and don't think I want to.

The sad part is I'm not 100% sure Meplat figured out what typo we've been riffing on.

7x57

[Meplat]

You mean we can't go around saying that the official NRA position is that "The M1 Garand (.30-06) is the ultimate battle rifle"? Darn. It's OK to take positions on trivia like AB962, but "best gun" arguments are serious!



I just want to add here that Paul is also a 1911 man. Is it possible to be more all-American than that?



The sad part is I'm not 100% sure Meplat figured out what typo we've been riffing on.

7x57

Ya but what can I say, just been suffering in silence.

[7x57]

Ya but what can I say, just been suffering in silence.

Ah, the stiff upper lip approach. Well, carry on then m'lud.

Though, one hint--it's hard to look stoic and British and all when you mount your rifle as low as a rockstar slings his guitar.

7x57

[boxbro]

By what logic is this guy supposed to be anti gun?

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=5930&type=category&category=37

Don't believe everything you hear on talk radio, or everything you read in right-wing blogs.

(Patiently awaiting the OP's response)

[Aegis]

Not surprising. There are many politicians such as this guy who do not want anyone else to own guns, but they seem to try to justify that they should own guns for self defense.

These politicians are hypocrites and have no moral or professional ethics. If these politicians are against guns, they should not own them or arm their bodyguards.

[dantodd]

By what logic is this guy supposed to be anti gun?

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=5930&type=category&category=37

Don't believe everything you hear on talk radio, or everything you read in right-wing blogs.

Thanks Mitch, I think this got lost on a lot of people in the genital noise.

[tacticalcity]

I don't know about my ever preferring a Garand over an M4. Quick reloads, low recoil for rapid target aquisition...if people are shooting back I want my M4 close at hand.

In my worst case imaginary scenerio I am always drastically out numbered and in a world of hurt...so I want speed on my side. I get that with an AR. It is also the reason I prefer my Glock 19 to more expensive, more powerful handguns. Speed not just to get on the first target, but the first 20 targets.

In my lets have a blast and enjoy ourselves everyday scenerio...it doesn't matter much. You don't have to get those tactical reloads and controlled pairs off in under two seconds.

All depends on what you're using it for. I keep the black rifles, tactical shotguns, and glocks around for the save my rear moments that hopefully (and most likely) will never come...and play with the rest because it's fun.

[tacticalcity]

Careful throwing around the "right-wing" label there...

I guess I stand corrected, assuming the information on that website is correct then the NRA seems pretty pleased with him.

Definately made for a better story when I though he was a gun grabber.

Reminded me of an incident with Senator Diane Feinstein a few years back. Of course, I can't find any information on that one online either. Something about saying she owned a handgun to protect herself from all those crazy gun owners out there who are threatening her because of her advocacy of gun control. Big time fuzzy logic...but of course without being able to site my source I can't say with 100% certain that one is true either.

[7x57]

I don't know about my ever preferring a Garand over an M4.

The Garand might keep working if you lose your magic cleaning potions and get a bit too busy to clean it frequently....

In my lets have a blast and enjoy ourselves everyday scenerio...it doesn't matter much. You don't have to get those tactical reloads and controlled pairs off in under two seconds.

If by "speed" you mean reloads, then you are mistaken. I don't think any gun in existence reloads faster than a Garand. I'm not practiced enough at it myself, but it would be fun to watch someone try to swap mags as fast as a good M1 operator can slap in a new en bloc clip. That's kinda the point of the system, in fact.

The weakness of the Garand system is rather in the fact that each clip holds only eight rounds. Faster reloads aren't everything when you have to do them so much more often, and that's a serious issue. It's even more serious when the larger capacity allows you, hopefully, to do a tactical reload at a time of your choosing rather than when you run dry while taking fire. Serious enough, it seems, for the army to move from the en bloc Garand clip to the slower but much larger M14 magazine. So in fact the overall advantage is on the side of the magazine, and my point is simply that the advantage is different than you think.

The other thing "speed" might mean is follow-up shots, and popgun-caliber rifles should always follow-up faster. That said, the big disadvantage of full-power cartridges is for the full-auto or burst mode that you do not have on your non-NFA, CA-legal weapon. But now the "speed versus frequency" problem cuts the other way. Troops are finding that the M4 often needs multiple shots to stop an attacker. This has rarely been an issue with battle-rifle cartridges, so arguably faster semi-auto follow-ups are not as good as not having to make them in the first place.

But this is just the usual "my rifle is better" contest, isn't it? It's pointless, and off-topic for the 2A forum anyway. My only real point is that the Garand reloads very very fast, whatever other issues may make you prefer the AR platform and an assault rifle cartridge instead of a battle rifle cartridge.

And that it might make a man of you--oh, wait, I'm not supposed to go there, am I?

7x57

[tacticalcity]

Kind of off topic, but it's my post so what the hell...

Not gonna convince me the Garand is better tactical option than an M4. You will however convince me it is a great rifle and must have for any collector, especially a former military guy like myself. The history behind the weapon system puts it on my very long wish list.

I can swap magazines while a round is still in the chamber and at any point fire without risk of loosing a finger (or finger nail) and to some degree concealing what I am doing while moving...pretty sure you can't do that with a Garand.

By definition a Tactical Reload means a round is still in the chamber while swapping out a less than full magazine with one that has more ammo in it. It keeps you ready to respond to the next threat about to popup out of nowhere while preparing for the next wave of hostiles. It's what you do after you just took down a hostile, there is a lull, but you want to keep as ready as possible.

Reloading when completely out of ammo is called an Emergency Reload. It's an "oh crap" they're still coming and I forgot or did not have the opportunity for a tactical reload type thing. If you had a lull, and did not reload a magazine fed weapon system...you're a knucklehead.

Not sure I believe a Garand would be a faster weapon to load even under the best of circumstances. Now add moving around and running to and from cover. Also not crazy about the "clip" vs. an enclosed magazine.

It is a great weapon...and I am certain it is a hell of a lot of fun...but you're not going to convince me to give up my M4 for one in a "it's hit the fan and all hell is breaking loose, dear God how I am going to survive this, hopefully never gonna happen" scenerio.

My CMMG M4, my Glock 19, and my Benchmade Knife and my Maxpedition Go-Bag full of MREs medical supplies and spare magazines and ammo are my best buddies.

Bothe the M4 and Glock 19 are exceedingly simple to master compared to other alternatives, and meet a wide range of worst case scenerios nicely. I went with low recoil (while still being effective), light easy to master trippers (upgraded my AR), relative light weight, and relatively low profile options that give me speed, accuracy and reliablity. They are not the only option out there...but they work for me.

There are those that hate the 5.56mm and the 9mm for failure to stop. It is an issue. Never personally run into it, but should a failure to stop occur it would seriously suck. My argument in favor of them is that in the heat of the moment the chances of a few of your rounds not finding their target is much higher than a failure to stop once you do hit. So I really like the fact that the relatively low recoil allows me much faster reaction time to get back on target and fire follow up shots if need be. Additionally, if the first hostile goes down with the first controlled pair, I can get back to scanning for further hostiles much faster. So for me, they make sense. I choose speed over firepower.

That said, I am not a fan of anything smaller...sure you're fast but you have next to no knockdown power. I went as low as I feel comfortable with.

[7x57]

Not gonna convince me the Garand is better tactical option than an M4.

That wasn't really the point--the point was that the Garand loads fast.

The *real* disadvantage for the Garand in *realistic* scenarios might be the penetration. In most scenarios you aren't alone with the zombies in a deserted city, and it would be nice if your rounds wouldn't penetrate a dozen houses or so. Definitely a point in favor of the AR, especially if you use frangible bullets. .30-06 is awfully overpowered to be shooting in a city.

But by God let 'em try their body armor.... (Box o' Truth did a test and .308 took three layers of body armor to stop, with the trauma plates inserted. There's the overpenetration working for you....)

Reloading when completely out of ammo is called an Emergency Reload.

As I pointed out, the problem with the 8-round clip is that this is much more likely to happen.

but you're not going to convince me to give up my M4 for one in a "it's hit the fan and all hell is breaking loose, dear God how I am going to survive this, hopefully never gonna happen" scenerio.

The AR reliability is what I'd worry about in that case.

There are those that hate the 5.56mm and the 9mm for failure to stop. It is an issue.

Probably less so in a Katrina-type situation, honestly. I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer an AK, however.

A friend has six of each for "emergencies." His theory is that if he has a friend, he breaks out the ARs. If not, then the AKs.

7x57

[tacticalcity]

No weapon system is perfect...they are alot like people in that way.

AK fans talk about the ARs lack of reliablity all the time, it's more stigma than actual fact. That's left over from Vietnam when the bean counters swapped out the smokeless ammo with what was then the common place gunpowder from back in the day. It gummed up the gas tubes causing an ungodly number of problems. Once the gunpowder issue was corrected, the issue was solved, but by then the stigma was in place. Forward assists, feedramps and bunch of other improvements over the years have also ironed out the wrinkles. When you hear modern horror stories they usually come third hand, and are not first hand experiences. The few first hand stories I have heard where with seriously warn out vietnam era A1s that should have been marked unservicable but somehow still managed to be in use in the field. The military, especially the Air Force and Marines, love to hang onto stuff way past when they should (for a very brief time I was issues one such A1 before being issued a GAU-5). I've never experienced these issues, and I've been using the AR in one form or another for 16 years. Though if you're truly worried about it you can always swap out the gas system for a piston one. It's all the rage these days...but I am not sold on it.

I'm a former AK owner. Already had my M4. Bought it because AK people raved so much about them I figured why the heck not. I was beyond less than pleased. Side by side there is no comparison on performance. AKs are a ton of fun...but have tons of issues. They are a BEAR to reload, and you often have to fight with the magazine to get it out of the weapon and reinserted. This was by far my biggest complaint. Most are imperfect remanufacturered AKs and things just don't line up or fit right. Sights are a big issue as well, I find them hard to use. They sit too low on the weapon for less than 100 yards. Beyond that they are easier to use as you manually raise the rear apature, but the accuracy of the weapon is not there the further out you get so it counter acts the advantage.

Don't get me wrong. I like the AK because it is an AK. Again, it has history and for that it makes any gun collectors list. But as someone who has first hand experience with both, side by side...the M4 comes out way, way ahead.

You have to run them both through the paces side by side on a tactical course yourself to truly appriciate why. It's lots of little things. The M4 is just easier. I ran into more failures to fire and jams with the AK, and really don't experience them with my AR. I've had less then 4 over the past 5 years, and none that I couldn't clear in seconds. Had more than that every time I broke out my AK. All 4 of those were my fault. I was using a maglock that screwed into place and the magazine was inserted unaturually high as a result of my tightening the maglock all the way down. Who knew? It doesn't do that without that particular maglock, so no issues.

Oh...and under the right circumstances I absolutely LOVE the .308. I had an M40A3 clone that was A-M-A-Z-I-N-G! If I were nesting, and not bugging out I would want it nearby. Distance, accuracy, and penatration, and ease of hitting your target in the mid-range over the AR which can still do it with more effort make it one hell of a round. It's the time it takes to recover from the recoil and getting back on target that is it's down fall for me. Once you start needing to be mobile, and they start getting close, that is when the M4 shines. It is a great bugout rifle.

As for failure to stop and body armor...practice those headshots...you're supposed be practicing them anyways...(but yes it is cool watching a .308 rip right through stuff that would stop a 5.56mm round). It is a very cool/fun round that makes you a much better shooter when it comes to accuracy because it flies flatter. Everybody needs at least one .308 rifle in their collection, that's for certain. I hope to have a GAP built M40A1 clone someday soon to replace the many .308 rifles I've parted with over the years.