Where and why would YOU put limits on RKBA?

[Meplat]

The phrase "gun nuts" is a tip off to me. But out mole. FUAYLDT!

I don't like the idea of registration, but there is no Constitutional argument against it, especially with the word "militia" in the Second Amendment.

If the government says there won't be confiscation, the courts are not going to assume otherwise just because a lot of gun nuts think it's an inevitable next step.

When discussing these things, people really need to think more about what they want to see and what they are more likely to see. But people believe what they want to believe anyway.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I believe the only constitutionally sound reason for registration is to guarantee the provision of the militia. The individual right for ownership as spelled out in the second amendment and the right to privacy as determined to be contained in the penumbra of the fourth would likely prevent registration of any non-militia weapons. A general registration law would be tantamount to a requirement for registration of all printing presses or laser/ink jet printers. However; the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment means there is a state interest in assuring the militia is well provisioned and a reasonable way to assure that is registration. If we are to assume the alternative interpretation of the prefatory clause then we end up with a collective rights interpretation of the whole 2A. I'll take registration of useful militia weapons over a collective rights interpretation.

Handguns are not a particularly useful militia weapon I think it would fall under other protections of the 2A and would not be registerable.

AR's etc. are the minimal necessary tool for a volunteer and also have well defined non-militia uses and as such would likely be immune from registration. Or could be voluntarily registered if one buys it specifically for militia duty. After all you wouldn't want someone laying a militia claim to your hunting rifle if you are not ready to volunteer.

There is no need for registration to accomplish this. A simple check list of what each 'militia member' has been issued will suffice.

[Meplat]

I call BS. At the time of the revolution it was a safe assumption that virtually all adult male citizens could put their hands on an effective long gun.

Of where the guns were during the revolution? I would assume that at least those commanding the troops had a decent idea of where the arms were. I have no reason to assume they didn't keep it in a list format. What's your point? I doubt the founders had a database with the fingerprints of crooks either but they do now, do you feel that is wrong also?

[dantodd]

I call BS. At the time of the revolution it was a safe assumption that virtually all adult male citizens could put their hands on an effective long gun.

Again, we are not talking about handguns and rifles. We're talking about artillery pieces, cannon etc. I have little doubt that you are correct about the availability of long arms at the time of the revolution.

[dantodd]

I read your posts, and you suggested registration to help the military locate arms among citizens. I disagree with this for many reasons. I also went on to say that registration does nothing, nothing at all. Which we seem to agree on, I think.

Then why do you continue to ask about handguns and rifles or ask if registration will keep people from killing one another? These are not, imo, valid reasons for registration. If you are going to argue against what I feel is valid governmental interest in registration don't argue non-points. If you are merely responding to my posts in order to reiterate your opinions on those issues please feel free to quote someone else in your replies. I'm more than happy to discuss what I think is valid registration but to continually inject irrelevant issues detracts from the conversation.

I will say again that I think the government has a valid interest in having a registration list of those weapons, beyond the basic tools of individual soldiers, in the hands of the unorganized militia (i.e. "the people") This would mean items like APCs, Tanks, anti-tank missile systems, anti-aircraft weapons, Medium machine guns, mines and artillery pieces. All of which I think should be protected expressions of the Second Amendment.

I do not think it would be constitutional for the government to keep a registration list of items that are likely to be kept for non-militia use or would be considered to be a commodity or the simple items you'd expect a militiaman to report to duty with. These items would include things like handguns, Rifles such as AR's and Ammunition.

[DocSkinner]

That is not always the case. It could easily be argued that in the case of a foreign invasion the organized militia and military would have a significant interest in knowing where valuable arms are located.

In the case of insurrection any competent owner of an artillery piece, cannon or case of land mines would surely move them. Obviously this would require insurrection before confiscation but that would also be necessary if there were no registration.

Also, I am only speaking of registration for arms that are not "small arms." Grenades would be a borderline case as they are typically issued to individual soldiers. But something like a 20mm gatling gun would require more than 1 person to effectively use it and would be a strategic arm for the militia and would thus seem "registerable."

The only major interest would be for the invading parties, or Benedict Arnolds in our own folds. Personal weapons ARE NOT part of the national defense. PEOPLE are.

THE ONLY REASON FOR A NATIONAL LIST IS FOR OUTSIDE USE, OR FOR CONFISCATION. there is NO other reason to have such a list.


as for the rest of your post, refer to my post.

[Meplat]

Today I think the US military has all the artillery they need. If they need mine they can just ask and I will help if I can. Otherwise, butt out. The only need to know where weapons are today is confiscation, period. To assert otherwise is to muddy the waters to cover for tyrannical statists.

Again, we are not talking about handguns andrifles. We're talking about artillery pieces, cannon etc.

[DocSkinner]

With or without registration. While registration may make it easier if you believe the government will behave so extra-constitutionally as to confiscate all firearms there is no reason to believe they wouldn't do it door to door.

Registration/lists **ONLY** facilitates the disappearance of PEOPLE like the people in your signature line. People that never made a list never disappear, as posts that people never state disappear.
BE CONSISTENT in your own logic!!!

[DocSkinner]

Rifles were kept in homes, but there was no way of knowing who did or did not have a rifle. It was assumed every house did have at least one rifle, but there was never a guarantee. To assume that any one had any idea of where the firearms were is insane, unless of course we're talking about an organized army, then there is an inventory and an armory.

+1!!
there were no computerized databases back then. They knew where ARSENALS and ARMORIES (i.e.: government established arms stockpiles) were, but they had no clue where all teh individual arms were.

you miss a MAJOR point here: the GOVERNMENT was the BRITISH CROWN. if they knew who all owned arms and could so approach them individually without waging war, and announcing fronts (so no Ride of Paul revere - as no major approach...), what flag do you think we would be flying now?

[Meplat]

Exactly. And what actually started the whole thing? The crown trying to confiscate the arms they COULD locate.

+1!!
there were no computerized databases back then. They knew where ARSENALS and ARMORIES (i.e.: government established arms stockpiles) were, but they had no clue where all teh individual arms were.

you miss a MAJOR point here: the GOVERNMENT was the BRITISH CROWN. if they knew who all owned arms and could so approach them individually without waging war, and announcing fronts (so no Ride of Paul revere - as no major approach...), what flag do you think we would be flying now?

[DocSkinner]

Of where the guns were during the revolution? I would assume that at least those commanding the troops had a decent idea of where the arms were. I have no reason to assume they didn't keep it in a list format. What's your point? I doubt the founders had a database with the fingerprints of crooks either but they do now, do you feel that is wrong also?

And you also suppose the European model - ALL arms are stored in a specific location, and when people need them - they go there for them.
That is the exact model the US was designed AGAINST. 1) the power to govern rests in the people, therefore, no need to restrict ownership. 2) teh right of self defense is a preset/preordained right - therefore everyone has teh right to have the means to defend themselves at their house, with out having to go to a central storage to get the means to defend their homes, which they are no longer at....

you are talking in the usual BS loops. please put up a decent point, or just admit, as you can't put up a decent point, you are clueless on thiss issue and talking out your a......

[DocSkinner]

I'm sorry, I thought you were actually reading my posts. I won't bother to discuss it if you aren't even reading what I write.

quid pro quo....

[DocSkinner]

I'm sorry, I thought you were actually reading my posts. I won't bother to discuss it if you aren't even reading what I write.

and so from then reading this response, and your previous posts, you agree that registration IS necessary for the primary purpose of confiscating arms from law abiding cirtizens to prevent them from defending themselves/the constitution?

[Meplat]

I think you put him under Doc.

and so from then reading this response, and your previous posts, you agree that registration IS necessary for the primary purpose of confiscating arms from law abiding cirtizens to prevent them from defending themselves/the constitution?

[DocSkinner]

There is no need for registration to accomplish this. A simple check list of what each 'militia member' has been issued will suffice.

and that is if they are issued something - The majority of constitutions constitutes a militia as "all able bodied men aged 18 - (48 to 64 ,depending on state)" and that they are EXPECTED to show up with weapons, and a certain amount of ammunition, common for current military use." So at this point they should ALL be showing up with AR style rifles, or M1 style rifles. Read the Constitution, and your state's Constitution.