30 State Concealed Weapons Permit- Front Sight Course

[dansgold]

I've got news for you ... check the public records of almost ANY business of any size and you'll find all sorts of "evidence" which can be misconstrued by unsophisticated minds.

I've spoken to people who bought the "real estate" memberships as well. They think the (3) people who brought suit were completely off-base. It's very easy for people to hear "we're planning to ..." and turn that into "I promise that we'll ...", and that seems to be the case here. Consider that out of dozens, only 3 sued.

You make a lot of claims Jim, and somehow expect that we should simply follow your shrill ramblings because you claim to have special knowledge. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion based upon whatever experience and knowledge you've gained.

My own personal knowledge and experience teaches me that there are some people who become obsessively fixated with some issue, and it becomes their "white whale" ... it appears to me that this applies in your case. So, as much as you are entitled to your opinion re: FS, others (thousands) are entitled by the same token to simply note that they have had a positive experience. For my part, I am free to be of the opinion that you are an angry man with a giant chip on your shoulder. I could be wrong, but there is nothing in your approach which leads me to believe otherwise.

If you really have some beef or case - and it's as airtight as you claim - there are better and more certain ways to get satisfaction than "internet stalking".

[MP301]

I knew there was a personal reason...you have a friend who was one of the plaintiff's in the land deal lawsuit? We already figured out by your comments...that its personal with you...otherwise you would say something like...."I dont like Piazza because of this and that, but his training is top notch"...

Well, all BS and speculation aside here, why did your friend wish to keep attending FS even though they were suing? Would it be because its a great place to train and whatever one might think of its business practices, ITS A GREAT PLACE TO TRAIN? ITS A GREAT PLACE TO TRAIN? Are you catching this?

At least admit, whilst attempting to sway others from going because of your personal reasons....that its because of YOUR personal reasons not because they wouldnt benefit a great deal from the instruction...

Now, repeat after me Jim...."Although I hate FS, the training is wonderful!"
or "I think Piazza is a snake, but the training is great!"

MP301: if you're ever near Carson City NV, go to the office of the state fire marshal. Ask to review the Frontsight file. It'll take you about an hour.

You WILL question every element of Iggy's business ethics after that.

Go to the office of the state water board, not far from there. There's another file. Read it and weep.

Don't want to do that? Cool. Point out this thread to Iggy. See if he sues me. Won't happen. He knows as well as I do what's in those files in Carson City and what's at the Nye County planning office, and the court records at both Nye and Clark counties.

[1JimMarch]

Well as far as Piazza's training goes, I have a whole different reason to distrust. But it's not specific to him and I'm at odds with dang near everybody on one key point: I don't focus on the front sight anymore. I focus on the target, and use sights that allow me to line them up correctly even though both front and rear are blurry.

The concept involved was invented by AZ gunsmith Tim Sheehan:

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm

This puts me cross-ways with Col. Cooper's various students, etc, not just Iggy. So I'm not going to comment on his training, other than to say Tim Sheehan got it right, no that's NOT "just a ghost ring" and others will eventually figure it out.

[dansgold]

I am experiencing a profound state of confirmation bias right now.

[zinfull]

OK so you do not like the principle of front sight targeting. Until the other sights are more common then why not train with the sight people use. How about instead of bashing this training you start a post on the benefits of your preferred sights. I would like to know more as my eye sight is not the best and shooting with glasses is a hassle.

jerry

[1JimMarch]

Let's back up a sec: I switched my sights over to Tim Sheehan's concept long AFTER figuring out Iggy is a crook. I didn't mean to mix issues and I'm well aware that the use of the front sight Frontsight teaches is still the norm.

I didn't intend to bash Iggy's training per se. However, I've not heard reports that it's better than any other reputable school and therefore worth discarding the rule of thumb "don't do business with crooks".

As to my experiences with a homebrewed clone of the Hexsite Tim has been kind enough to let me pursue, I've described that in more detail elsewhere:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=215499&page=4 (starting bottom of page 4)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=373810&page=2 (starting towards the top of page 2)

----

But again: it wasn't my intent to slam Iggy's training, I'm much more concerned with his business ethics.

Here's why it should matter to somebody attending FS:

Even without getting involved in residential real estate, Iggy's business plan calls for selling you "extended memberships" involving long-term training opportunities.

Tell me I'm wrong here - tell me you don't get at least a minor sales pitch on long-term membership "opportunities". All you have to do is look at his website:

http://www.frontsight.com/handgun-training-memberships.asp

The "Patriot" program is a bit under $8,000 - the cheapest. The "Diamond" is HOLY CRAP $99 thousand and change, comes with a Rolex watch. Scratch that, a *diamond* Rolex watch. Yikes.

Well the problem with that is, if you buy into a membership program (at any price level) without understanding how ridiculously shaky Iggy's finances are, how he's being hounded by creditors, sued almost as often as anybody else showers (yes, exaggeration, but still...) you won't understand how risky doing business with him on long-term deals is. He'll *probably* be able to hold it all together long enough for you to blow through $8k of training if you cram it in fast enough...but $50k worth in the "Silver" program?

Ain't.

No.

Way.

Not with finances that look like a continual slow-motion train wreck.

With the residential real estate sales program dead, that's the main area of business fraud Iggy is engaged in: he's selling long-term memberships to people who don't understand the risks.

[dansgold]

Why would you post ONLY the information on the website, when you KNOW - if you've even done minimal research or know much of anything at all about FS - that memberships are often available for a fraction of that price, and there are sales/promotions/deals all the time? Example: There is a lifetime membership available right now for $912 ... includes:

• Two Day Defensive Handgun
• Two Day Tactical Shotgun
• Two Day Practical Rifle
• Four Day Defensive Handgun
• Four Day Tactical Shotgun
• Four Day Practical Rifle
• Two Day Handgun Skill Builder
• Two Day Advanced Tactical Handgun
• Four Day Handgun Combat Master Prep

I'm paying a fraction of that website price for a Diamond+Alaska membership (with weapons included) PLUS a Challenge membership for my wife PLUS a Self-Reliance membership for my daughter. Yep, for all of that together ... I am supposed to think that I am being scammed when nobody has even asked me to sign loan paperwork, and I can just quit/stop paying whenever I want? A few months ago they were offering (onsite in LV) a 2-for-1 Legacy membership for $4000 including a bonus XD40, AR-15 and Mossberg 590a1. These kinds of deals and others are offered all the time, and anyone with a passing knowledge of FS can attest to this simple fact.

You say "I've not heard reports that it's better than any other reputable school" ... but such reports are so common -amongst people who have attended FS and other schools - that it's almost impossible for you to have not encountered them if you have been paying attention at all. I am certain there are contrary opinions (I've seen them) but for you to insist you haven't seen ANY is simply not believable.

It's reasonable to suspect that either a) You really don't know what you are talking about, or b) You are deliberately (and deceptively) trying to paint the worst possible picture while knowing quite well that you are not giving a complete, accurate, truthful rendering of the facts. Frankly, this calls into question the verity of the rest of your claimed "research".

Either way, it identifies you further as a guy with a giant chip his shoulder, willing to play fast-n-loose (possibly even lying) for effect. That seems a bit hypocritical to me, if you intend to question anyone else's "ethics".

Further, you've called Piazza a "crook" and said that he (or FS) are guilty of "real estate fraud". Has a crime been proven, or is this just more of your playing fast-n-loose with the facts? I am aware that many - especially the media - throw around such terms loosely, but you approach this as though you are some kind of "arbiter of truth" to whom we should all pay heed. Shouldn't you have a higher standard of ethics and integrity if you assume for yourself such a role?

Lastly, you spew a lot of factoids devoid of context:

• "He's been sued by vendors" ... Do you have any idea how impossible it is to be in business without being sued?
• "Have they removed that silly rope thing that got someone killed?" ... Perspective is important. More people have died at Disneyland than at FS over the past decade.
• "finances that look like a continual slow-motion train wreck" ... This must be why they are increasing staff size, adding new courses (yay), and why I saw the beginnings of new development underway earlier this month. Hardly the picture of a place "about to go under".

You really just seem to have made this the windmill for your jousting, Jim. It all seems a bit unhinged.