Q: NFA Legal Definitions for converted weapons (outside of CA, of course)

[gunn]

Hi,
While this doesn't apply to CA, I figured there were enough people on this site that understand this trivia so I was hoping for some clarification here.
I did have some questions about NFA conversions (after filing the paperwork and receiving a tax stamp). I understand that most of these cost ~$200 for the stamp plus ~4 months of time and CLEO signoff (or a Trust).

Please let me know if I have these definitions right.

I figure I have these correct:

Rifle => barrel cut to <16" & OAL <26" => Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)
Shotgun w/ buttstock => barrel cut to <18" & OAL <26" => Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
Pistol => add vertical forward grip => Any Other Weapon (AOW)
Pistol => add buttstock, don't change barrel length (<16") & OAL <18" => SBR
Shotgun w/ pistol grip only => barrel cut to <18" => AOL (smoothbore pistol and NOT a shotgun)
Smoothbore Pistol => replace with rifled barrel => DD (not a shotgun anymore)
Rifle => buttstock removed, barrel cut down to pistol length => SBR

Bomb / Grenade Launcher / Anything with a rifled bore and a caliber over 50cal that's NOT a "sporting shotgun" => Destructive Device

Sporting Shotguns are NOT destructive devices even with rifled bores.
A non-Sporting Shotgun is some kind of semi-auto shotgun w/ a mag capacity of >5 rds.

Thanks,
-g

UPDATE: I added all the comments/corrections/clarifications from the posts below

[motorhead]

shotgun length is 18"
rifle/shotgun must be 26" OAL.
iirc, shotguns are exempted from the >.50 cal. rule.
pistol w/buttstock=SBR
p/g shotgun, under 18" bbl./26" OAL=AOW
pistol w/VFG=AOW

[Para45]

Not ALL shotguns are exempted - the Cobray Street Sweeper, Striker 12 etc. are considered DD's.

Q: Why aren't 12ga shotguns with a rifled bore NOT considered DDs?

Because they have a "sporting" use, e.g. deer hunting.

[gunn]

shotgun length is 18"
rifle/shotgun must be 26" OAL.
iirc, shotguns are exempted from the >.50 cal. rule.
pistol w/buttstock=SBR
p/g shotgun, under 18" bbl./26" OAL=AOW
pistol w/VFG=AOW

So in FEDERAL nomenclature, there are NO "short barreled shotguns" -- non-sporting shotguns are either AOWs or DDs, right?

-g

[ke6guj]

So in FEDERAL nomenclature, there are NO "short barreled shotguns" -- non-sporting shotguns are either AOWs or DDs, right?

-g

nope.

If you take a shotgun and cut it down, it does become an SBS. It is not an AOW or DD. AFAIK, you can have a rifled barrel on an SBS and it is still an SBS.

However, if you take a PG-only "shotgun" and cut it down, it becomes a smoothbore pistol, which is an AOW. If you put a rifled barrel on it, it would be a DD because it isn't a shotgun and isn't a smoothbore pistol anymore.

[nicki]

Certain shotguns.

Not ALL shotguns are exempted - the Cobray Street Sweeper, Striker 12 etc. are considered DD's.

Quote:
Q: Why aren't 12ga shotguns with a rifled bore NOT considered DDs?
Because they have a "sporting" use, e.g. deer hunting.

These guns became destructive devices by "creative, arbitrary and subjective reinterpretation" of the "sporting use" provisions of the GCA1968.

Big factor, this was done by executive order just before the 1994 AWB.

Potential for a second amendment suit, trick is to find a plantiff with standing who is willing to risk a loss.

Right now, if this is not dealt with, the President could expand and abuse this authority to reclassify a lot of shotguns like the Saigas, Benelli M4's, etc.


Nicki

[B Strong]

Hi,
While this doesn't apply to CA, I figured there were enough people on this site that understand this trivia so I was hoping for some clarification here.
I did have some questions about NFA conversions (after filing the paperwork and receiving a tax stamp). I understand that most of these cost ~$200 for the stamp plus ~4 months of time.

Please let me know if I have these definitions right.

I figure I have these correct:

Rifle => barrel cut to <16" => Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)
Shotgun w/ buttstock => barrel cut to <16" => Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)
Pistol => add vertical forward grip => Any Other Weapon (AOW)
Grenade Launcher / Anything with a rifled bore and a caliber over 50cal => Destructive Device

These are the definitions I'm not sure about. Please educate me:

Pistol => add buttstock, don't change barrel length (<16") => SBR?

Shotgun w/ pistol grip only => barrel cut to <16" => SBS or AOW or Destructive Device?

Rifle => buttstock removed, barrel cut down to pistol length => AOW? SBR? [example: perhaps a Mosin-Nagant cut down to a pistol]

Q: Why aren't 12ga shotguns with a rifled bore NOT considered DDs?

Thanks,
-g

Don't forget the CLEO sign-off.

[ke6guj]

Trusts are exempt from the CLEO sign-off

[B Strong]

Trusts are exempt from the CLEO sign-off

Correct

[motorhead]

i'd forgotten about the stryker and streetsweeper. saiga drums next?
BTW-
SG w/bbl.<18" AND STOCK=SBS
SG w/bbl.<18" and p/g=AOW.

NOTE -shotguns are 18" not 16"

[gunn]

Now, one more clarification. Let's talk about flares.
Did I get these correct?

ANY explosive round in a "flare gun" => DD
27mm flare launcher => not a firearm
37mm flare launcher => not a firearm
40mm flare luancher => DD (because that is the std military round)

Not sure about this one:
Q: 12 gauge flare launcher w/ shotgun round => besides being a real bad idea, is this a DD now?

Q: Could someone market a "master-key" lookalike for underneath ARs out of polymers (not strong enough for a real 12ga round) and market it as a "flare launcher" to the tacticool set? If you made if flimsy enough, you could claim it was never designed to shoot a shotgun round and therefore couldn't be a SBS, right?

[ke6guj]

IIRC, ATF considers a flare gun that shoots a shotgun shell to be an smoothbore pistol, an AOW. They had a publication about them that I can't find right now that showed the remains of flare guns that had shotgun shells fired in them. Flare guns are not designed to fire a shotgun shell and will usually fail, often on the first shot. Needless to say, I would not be pulling the trigger on one of those setups.

[gunn]

IIRC, ATF considers a flare gun that shoots a shotgun shell to be an smoothbore pistol, an AOW. They had a publication about them that I can't find right now that showed the remains of flare guns that had shotgun shells fired in them. Flare guns are not designed to fire a shotgun shell and will usually fail, often on the first shot. Needless to say, I would not be pulling the trigger on one of those setups.

So this is an AOW? Or the act of putting a 12ga shotgun shell into it makes it an AOW.

http://www.westerncanoekayak.com/product_spec.php?item_description_id=5397

I KNOW this is a bad idea... I'm merely curious as to if/how they are regulated.

[ke6guj]

Yes, per ATF, putting a shotgun shell into that makes in an AOW, which is a felony if you don't have an approved Form 1 or Form 4.

[Mulay El Raisuli]

Potential for a second amendment suit, trick is to find a plantiff with standing who is willing to risk a loss.

Nicki

Actually, this is quite easy to do. The problem is that the Right People won't do so.

All we need to find is someone charged with the offense. The problem is that this person is most likely going to be a gang-banger type. Since the Right People just won't defend a gang-banger type, even if it gives us the opportunity to strike down an unconstitutional action, the wait will likely be a long one.

The Raisuli