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Chicago Files its response in NRA/McDonald

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  • #31
    jdberger
    CGN/CGSSA Contributor
    CGN Contributor
    • Oct 2005
    • 8944

    I've always been a fan of the "2nd Amendment is a State RIght" argument.

    One of the better explorations of this argument was done by Glenn Reynolds and Don Kates.

    In light of comments made by the States of Texas and Montana re secession - comments like these are amusing.

    Moreover, under the states' right view, the Second Amendment guarantees a vastly greater range of weaponry (to state-authorized civilians or to the states themselves) than is implied by the individual right view. Exponents of the latter view have been at some pains to show that the Amendment extends to small arms only. Warships, tanks, artillery, missiles, atomic bombs, and so forth are excluded from its guarantee for several reasons, including the Amendment's text,[56] the history of the common law (p.1757)right to arms,[57] and the logic of the individual right position.[58]

    Of course, none of the limitations implicit in the individual right view applies to the states' right view because the common law imposed no limitations on the kinds of arms the government might possess. If the incongruity of the Amendment describing a state as "bearing" arms can be ignored, which the states' right view necessarily does, a state is obviously no more incapable of "bearing" cannon than any other kind of arms. Moreover, if the purpose of the Second Amendment is to guarantee the existence of state military forces that can serve as "a military counterpoint to the regular standing army,"[59] the arms it guarantees the states logically could include even the most destructive implements of modern war. However unsettling these results may be, they inevitably result from the Antifederalist critique of the original Constitution upon which proponents of the states' right view rely.
    I wonder if this is what Chicago is really shooting for? Their own Navy?
    Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

    90% of winning is simply showing up.

    "Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green

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    • #32
      FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
      Veteran Member
      • Feb 2006
      • 3012

      Originally posted by hoffmang
      You face an uphill argument if you don't see Scalia saying that handguns are common and protected while e.g. pen guns may be both dangerous and unusual. Also, something very, very important is that Scalia said that there was a "historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and unusual weapons.'"

      Possession isn't carrying.

      -Gene
      No doubt handgun bans are an uphill argument after Heller. I'm thinking of regulations on other "dangerous" firearms.

      Possession isn't carrying. But the dangerous and unusual quote comes right in the middle of the section where Scalia is talking about all the restrictions on "keeping and carrying" that he thinks are ok. He lumps possession and carrying together and the dangerous and unusual quote is meant to illustrate the point that the second amendment right is "not unlimited."

      I think the most interesting second amendment argument is going to be "you can't regulate my dangerous firearm because it is not unusual."
      sigpic

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      • #33
        hoffmang
        I need a LIFE!!
        • Apr 2006
        • 18448

        Originally posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
        I think the most interesting second amendment argument is going to be "you can't regulate my dangerous firearm because it is not unusual."
        That argument is already being made in Hanson. The other side certainly likes to read "or" into that line.

        -Gene
        Gene Hoffman
        Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation

        DONATE NOW
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        Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization.
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        "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon

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        • #34
          FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
          Veteran Member
          • Feb 2006
          • 3012

          Originally posted by hoffmang
          That argument is already being made in Hanson. The other side certainly likes to read "or" into that line.
          Is there a link to an opposition brief in that case? Thanks.
          sigpic

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          • #35
            hoffmang
            I need a LIFE!!
            • Apr 2006
            • 18448

            Originally posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
            Is there a link to an opposition brief in that case? Thanks.
            DC's deadline is 4/21 I believe though I expect they'll ask for more time. Not sure that they'll get it. Suffice it to say that as soon as their is an opposition to the MSJ, I'll post it.

            -Gene
            Gene Hoffman
            Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation

            DONATE NOW
            to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter.
            Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization.
            I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly!


            "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon

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            • #36
              kermit
              Member
              • Apr 2006
              • 289

              Originally posted by hoffmang
              Handguns are "dangerous and unusual"
              Rifles are the far superior defense tool in urban environments!
              Wait a minute! What is the average Chicago LEO carrying? Certainly they can't be carrying anything that's "dangerous and unusual"
              Don't tell me they've switched to SMG like some of the European cops.
              (Although if it makes me able to get a full auto MP-5 for urban defense, I'll drink that Kool-aid!)
              Lots of intersteing 2A cases playing out in America.

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              • #37
                kermit315
                Calguns Addict
                • Sep 2007
                • 5928

                man, hears that kermit guy again, going and making sense.

                I am starting to like you...


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                • #38
                  calixt0
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 546

                  what I don't get is if we look back at history these men who wrote or are about to write the constitution along with the bill of rights either just went through a war or were about to go through a war where many of the combatants were the average townfolks with weapons of their own who fought. yet the right to keep and bear arms is only for state militias.

                  secondly If as the 2a states specifically to protect against tyrancial rule if the government or state can limit what is given how can the average citizen group overthrough a tyranical leadership. Lets say for example either state or the federal gov't decides we are no longer allowing anything but single shot rifles.... then they decide that thay they aren't going to have elections anymore and those in power are going to stay inpower. how are the people who have only single shot rifles going to protect angainst such tyranical rule? they have taken our ability to defend ourselves even against the state or govt itself. my way of thinking if I can afford it I should be able to by it. be it an ambrahms tank or a f22 fighter or a full saw. full auto and all.


                  I know most of you here agree with most of this, but does anyone know the arguments that the courts are using to uphold this obviously sketchy situation?

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                  • #39
                    lioneaglegriffin
                    Veteran Member
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 3897

                    Originally posted by calixt0
                    what I don't get is if we look back at history these men who wrote or are about to write the constitution along with the bill of rights either just went through a war or were about to go through a war where many of the combatants were the average townfolks with weapons of their own who fought. yet the right to keep and bear arms is only for state militias.

                    secondly If as the 2a states specifically to protect against tyrancial rule if the government or state can limit what is given how can the average citizen group overthrough a tyranical leadership. Lets say for example either state or the federal gov't decides we are no longer allowing anything but single shot rifles.... then they decide that thay they aren't going to have elections anymore and those in power are going to stay inpower. how are the people who have only single shot rifles going to protect angainst such tyranical rule? they have taken our ability to defend ourselves even against the state or govt itself. my way of thinking if I can afford it I should be able to by it. be it an ambrahms tank or a f22 fighter or a full saw. full auto and all.


                    I know most of you here agree with most of this, but does anyone know the arguments that the courts are using to uphold this obviously sketchy situation?
                    they'd probably be afraid you'd sell the avionics or the stealth technology to the chinese.
                    "Si vis pacem, para bellum" ("If you want peace, prepare for war") Flavius V. Renatus
                    "There are five boxes to use in the defense of Liberty: The Soap Box, the Mail Box, the Ballot Box, the Jury Box, and the Ammunition Box. Please use them in that order."

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                    • #40
                      Chicago
                      Junior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 42

                      Orals Arguments (attempted but not) Heard

                      Yesterday the 7th Circuit heard oral arguments in the consolidated appeals of McDonald v. Chicago, NRA v. Chicago, and NRA v. Oak Park. The panel consisted of chief judge Frank Easterbrook (Reagan, 1985), former chief judge Richard Posner (Reagan, 1981), and Quilici v. Morton Grove (1982 gun-ban precident) author William Bauer (Ford, 1974). Steven Holbrook represented the NRA and Alan Gura represented McDonald; though neither was allowed to say much.

                      For anyone interested, the audio is available here:


                      On the up side, at least we don't have to wait three months to learn of the court's opinion.

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                      • #41
                        ke6guj
                        Moderator
                        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                        • Nov 2003
                        • 23725

                        Originally posted by Chicago
                        On the up side, at least we don't have to wait three months to learn of the court's opinion.
                        As in, by the tone of the questioning, or, the rules of the 7th circuit don't allow for them to take three months to release an opinion.
                        Jack



                        Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

                        No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.

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                        • #42
                          swhatb
                          Member
                          • Mar 2006
                          • 399

                          Good response...

                          Originally posted by hoffmang
                          Heller makes it plain that as long as an arm is not "dangerous and unusual" (Pen gun, SBS, Machine Gun) and is commonly owned for lawful purposes, it can't be banned.

                          The State will not Incorporate. Federal Courts will Incorporate against the states and the Federal Courts will drive the interpretation of the 2A as incorporated via 14A. Heller in turn drives the Federal Courts.

                          -Gene

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