Legality of Locked Container Carry

[grammaton76]

Really?! So I can have the UNLOADED handgun laying on the passenger seat, with a magazine FULL OF ROUNDS and be perfectly legal? This would really have come in handy, as I once had a "gang member" run up to my driverside window at a stop light and try to open the car door, where I cetainly felt my life was in danger! Unfortunately I couldnt go anywhere as there were cars in front and behind and nobody seem to do a damn thing. Also under what PC is this stated (for my personal knowledge)

Bear in mind that, because this is suddenly open carry, you are subject to prosecution if you do it within 1000' of a school. Otherwise, go right ahead.

[grammaton76]

It'd be nice if there were some points to nail down the point of whether or not you need to actually sit down somewhere when LUCC'ing.

[Librarian]

So, let's try this version

It is 'soft' about the sit down stuff. Don't know quite what I think about that.

Locked Container Carry

The following is not legal advice.

Before acting on any of the following information, you should consult with your own attorney.

GOAL

To legally carry a concealable firearm without CCW. There are limited circumstances where this is possible.

CONDITIONS

(1) Concealed in a locked container
(2) Unloaded
(3) Avoid restricted areas (e.g. school property, court buildings)
(4) Avoid private property without owner’s/possessor’s permission
/// (4) is pretty vague! What can we say to clarify that we KNOW is accurate?///

BACKGROUND

Citizens of California who do not hold permits to carry concealed weapons (CCW) are still permitted, under certain circumstances, to transport a concealed handgun.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html

CONCEALED

Penal Code 12025 creates the crime of carrying a concealed weapon.

Penal Code 12026 creates an exemption to PC 12025, for any citizen or resident,

who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.

Penal Code 12026.1 creates an exemption to PC 12025, which applies to transport in a motor vehicle, if

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is … in a locked
container in the vehicle …
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.

[Abridged to focus on the current discussion]

Nothing in 12026.1 specifies where the firearm and driver and motor vehicle may or must go.

Penal Code 12026.2 creates an exemption to PC 12025 with no mention of a motor vehicle

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.

12026.2(c) appears to express the intent of the exception.


LOADED

Penal Code 12031 creates the crime of carrying a loaded firearm. There is a long list of law enforcement and related exceptions, and (h) and (l) for the rest of us:

(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
property.
…
(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

“Loaded” is used in the way developed in People v Clark: ammunition must be in a position from which it may be fired. Magazines or speed loaders, filled with cartridges, may be carried in the same case as the gun. No cartridges may be in the cylinder or the magazine well.

LOCKED CONTAINER

This discussion is limited to portable containers; fixed containers attached to motor vehicles are excluded.

The issues are ‘secure enough’ and ‘the case does not scream “gun”’.

We suggest a soft-sided single pistol case, with a rectangular shape rather than something ‘pistol shaped’. The case should have a strong zipper around the pistol compartment and a lock which will prevent the zipper from opening without the key or combination.

Plan to spend $20 to $30 for the case, $5 to $10 for the lock. Do not go ‘cheap’ on either of these items; appearance and intent to comply should be made obvious on close inspection. “Dillon's 'Plan B' Day Planner” (about $25) has been successfully used by some people, who added a lock.

The locked container may be carried inside another container; if so, the shape and possible 'gun shape' are no longer relevant.

RESTRICTED AREAS

PENAL CODE 626.9(f)(1) creates a felony for bringing a firearm onto a K-12 school campus. Subsection (i) creates a felony for bringing a firearm onto the campus of a public or private college or university. There is an exception for CCW, but not for locked container carry as described in this article.

Other areas are no-firearm, even for CCW, sometimes even for LEO. Expect this to be true for Federal buildings and any court house; observe signs and call ahead if uncertain. Expect this also for sports stadiums and concert venues, either publicly or privately owned or operated.

[Librarian]

Just to follow, I expect the utility of any explanatory document will be more to one's personal lawyer than to any LEO contact. New things sometimes get settled by 'let the lawyers sort it out'; if one is arrested while engaged in a carefully legal-so-far-as-we-know manner, one can say "I'm being charged with violating 12025 and 12031; we can easily dispose of 12031 because of .... and I think I'm covered by a 12026.2 exception here. Here's the code references and the reasoning."

But you might want to talk about that with your favorite attorney before getting into that fix.

[hoffmang]

Gramma,

Don't overemphasize "sit." It's more that you have a plausible legal argument that you are legally in control of property you have the lawful right to be on.

-Gene

[gvazquez]

ok, so I get the obviously restricted places (schools, gov) but whats the word as of now as far as restaurants, stores, malls, movies?

[Electricboy]

ok.... i read PENAL CODE 626.9(f)(1)

this may be off topic but, a CCW holder can carry on campus?

[Librarian]

ok.... i read PENAL CODE 626.9(f)(1)

this may be off topic but, a CCW holder can carry on campus?

Yes.

It seems to be not well known among campus police departments, and the few I've spoken to are unhappy once they find out. (I suppose that's understandable; there's not that many permits out, and most college/university students used to be under 21, so used to be they would have been excluded by age. Student population in the last 10 years is shifting a bit older.)

That'll probably keep you from being arrested.

But if you're a student or employee, the school can do other things, and if you are NOT a student or employee, they can ask you to leave.

Just another case where concealed is concealed. If you're legal, and no one finds out, there will be no excess drama.

[swhatb]

It is 'soft' about the sit down stuff. Don't know quite what I think about that.

Locked Container Carry

The following is not legal advice.

Before acting on any of the following information, you should consult with your own attorney.

GOAL

To legally carry a concealable firearm without CCW. There are limited circumstances where this is possible.

CONDITIONSBACKGROUND

Citizens of California who do not hold permits to carry concealed weapons (CCW) are still permitted, under certain circumstances, to transport a concealed handgun.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12020-12040.html

CONCEALED

Penal Code 12025 creates the crime of carrying a concealed weapon.

Penal Code 12026 creates an exemption to PC 12025, for any citizen or resident,


Penal Code 12026.1 creates an exemption to PC 12025, which applies to transport in a motor vehicle, if

[Abridged to focus on the current discussion]

Nothing in 12026.1 specifies where the firearm and driver and motor vehicle may or must go.

Penal Code 12026.2 creates an exemption to PC 12025 with no mention of a motor vehicle


12026.2(c) appears to express the intent of the exception.


LOADEDLOCKED CONTAINERRESTRICTED AREAS

PENAL CODE 626.9(f)(1) creates a felony for bringing a firearm onto a K-12 school campus. Subsection (i) creates a felony for bringing a firearm onto the campus of a public or private college or university. There is an exception for CCW, but not for locked container carry as described in this article.

Other areas are no-firearm, even for CCW, sometimes even for LEO. Expect this to be true for Federal buildings and any court house; observe signs and call ahead if uncertain. Expect this also for sports stadiums and concert venues, either publicly or privately owned or operated.

good summary...

[Electricboy]

thanks librarian

[CA_Libertarian]

I have read post after post regarding what some call the "Poor man's CCW".

Basically, it says that you could have in your car an unloaded Glock 27 locked in a maxpedition bag right next to you on passenger seat. You could use a simple padlock to lock the zipped compartment that holds the gun closed. The loaded magazine could be in a separate compartment in the same bag. If you needed the gun, you would unlock the bag, access your gun and insert the magazine.

I have a few questions:

1. Is this true?
2. Are there limitations where you can drive with the gun in your car? (School, ect...)
3. Could you slip the bag over your shoulder (still locked) and walk into Walmart?
4. Can carry it like this in your car at all times or do you have to be specifically transporting the gun to a specific destination?

Any opinions?

Try this thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=163061

Yes, your questions - posted on page 8 - were already answered on page 1 of this very thread (not to mention several other threads). The above link takes you to page 1 of this thread.

[jtippins]

An interesting thought of mine. Several posts have referenced the idea of legal locked carrying of an unloaded firearm in 'ready' status just by placing the mag 'if needed'.

However, I can't see how the 'use' of the legally transported firearm is a legal use. When one obtains the firearm from that locked position in a public place he or she is now in violation of the law, correct?

[Librarian]

An interesting thought of mine. Several posts have referenced the idea of legal locked carrying of an unloaded firearm in 'ready' status just by placing the mag 'if needed'.

However, I can't see how the 'use' of the legally transported firearm is a legal use. When one obtains the firearm from that locked position in a public place he or she is now in violation of the law, correct?

Not necessarily. Unloaded open carry is legal (if having a gun at all is legal) except school zones.

Loaded carry - PC 12031 - is a problem, except

(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.
(2) A violation of this section is justifiable when a person who
possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave
danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current
restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons
who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or
safety. This paragraph may not apply when the circumstances involve
a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing
with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a
specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent
of the Legislature to limit, restrict, or narrow the application of
current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other
justifications to defendants charged with violating Section 12025 or
of committing other similar offenses.
Upon trial for violating this section, the trier of fact shall
determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief
that he or she was in grave danger.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

[DDT]

Not necessarily. Unloaded open carry is legal (if having a gun at all is legal) except school zones.

Loaded carry - PC 12031 - is a problem, except

Interestingly the exemption you have underlined is not guaranteed to happen because police have no legal obligation to respond.

[unusedusername]

So I've gotten one of the aforementioned "plan b" carry planners, and modified it a bit to make it more unloaded locked container carry friendly.

Sorry about the cell phone pictures, the real camera has dead batteries.

It fits my Sig 226 quite snugly. There is about one inch between the end of the gun (7.7 inch total length, 4.4 inch barrel length) and the top of the planner, so potentially a slightly larger gun such as a 1911 or Beretta 92 could fit in this case.


My wife went nuts with the sewing machine and made it able to carry 2 magazines and also a light.


It is unlikely that I could get the light out quickly, but the light is more for hotel stays during road trips anyways.

Even with everything in it, it does not bulge on any of the sides. Looks quite innocent.