Gone in 60 Seconds

[Shotgun Man]

Is possession of a disassembled on-list lower illegal? Thanks.

All the replies, but not one nuanced answer unless I've missed it.

I've heard bweise or hoffmang say that possession of a stripped on-list lower is defensible in court because it is not a semi-automatic rifle.

ETA: I just hoffmang's answer.

[EBR Works]

Since the list includes:

PWA: All Models

It is on list and therefore not legal to own, unless registered, even in a stripped condition.

[sromero]

Hahaha! Yes, And the MUSTANG!! Hahaha!!!!

[EBR Works]

Yes Gene, please help us out here. Your statement "The frame or receiver of a firearm is not the firearm for the AW section. Possession of a listed bare frame is arguably legal" goes against everything I have read here in the past year.

[JeffM]

Assault weapons are classifed as either Rifles, Shotguns, or Pistols.


According to the BATF a stripped frame is none of the above.


It wouldn't be wise to test it out in court (wich is what WILL happen). I doubt one of the 58 DAs would drop that case.

[383green]

Is possession of a disassembled on-list lower illegal? Thanks.

Thanks for the replies. And yes, I do need to ask, especially since there are conflicting answers to the question, even within this thread. So to clarify, I am referring to a completely unassembled lower (no parts whatever), and a make and model not enumerated in Penal Code 12276. (For example a disassembled PWA lower). Thanks.

In your original post, you asked about an "on-list" lower. That means a lower which is listed by make and model in Penal Code 12276. If you meant to ask about a lower which is not listed by make and model in Penal Code 12276, then that's what we call an "Off-List Lower", or "OLL" for short.

Even though this may have already been answered to your satisfaction, I'll summarize and elaborate a bit in case this helps:

If the receiver is listed by make and model in PC 12276, then it is considered to be an "Assault Weapon", whether it is stripped or assembled. As an assault weapon, most people can not legally possess it unless they registered it before the deadline (many years ago).

If the receiver is not listed by make and model in PC 12276 (that is, it's an OLL), then it is legal to possess. It can even be assembled into a functional rifle, as long as it is configured to not fall into any of the restricted configurations in PC 12276.1. The easiest way to understand the feature restrictions is the CA AW ID Flowchart which was previously mentioned.

The comments about "Evans" refer to some particular listed weapons which were permanently altered by welding shut the magwell, and the CA DOj issued a letter which stated that this modification made them OK even though listed. However, many feel that this may have been bad advice by DOJ, and aren't sure it would stand up in court. If you're not asking about one of these welded-up lowers, then forget that anybody mentioned them, in order to avoid needless confusion.

[JDay]

So, I have two conflicting answers - one says: "Yes, it is illegal. Remember, the AR lower is the weapon. Everything else is just parts."

The other says: "The frame or receiver of a firearm is not the firearm for the AW section. Possession of a listed bare frame is arguably legal."

Thanks for the help. Can anyone end the debate for once and for all?

The receiver itself is not an AW unless it is listed by make and model. A OLL that is stripped bare is not an assault weapon since its not in one of the "evil" configurations. Hope this answers your question.

[hoffmang]

You can look at this footnote in Bill Lockyer's letter to the Governator.

It should be noted that there is some doubt as to whether the Attorney General's Office has the statutory authority to list a bare receiver as an assault weapon since it lacks the characteristics of an assault weapon, including its ability to fire

It's badly unclear and you should not do it but the key thing to note as to what I was saying is this.

12001. (c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.

...

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the
following designated semiautomatic firearms:

So the frame or receiver is not the firearm for 12276.

But I'll say it again. DO NOT POSSESS a frame or receiver marked on any of the lists without a registration. It's not a case worth fighting.

-Gene

[sromero]

Did I really start this much controversy?? It certainly wasnt his best film, but an entertainer for sure.

[383green]

So, I have two conflicting answers - one says: "Yes, it is illegal. Remember, the AR lower is the weapon. Everything else is just parts."

This is the safer answer. If it is listed by make and model, then one should not possess the bare receiver in CA (this could be charged as a misdemeanor), and they definitely should not try to sneak it out of state (this could be charged as a felony).

The other says: "The frame or receiver of a firearm is not the firearm for the AW section. Possession of a listed bare frame is arguably legal."

This is, I believe, based on a legally untested observation that the AW laws might not be applicable to a stripped receiver. "Defensible" means that it might be possible to avoid a guilty verdict in court.

When folks ask here about what they should do if they find themselves in illegal possession of a listed assault weapon, it's often suggested that (among other things) they immediately strip it down to a bare receiver. This does not necessarily make it legal to possess, but it is believed to help stack the odds a bit more in their favor if they find themselves in court. Even after stripping down the receiver, it's still recommended that they pre-arrange to surrender it to law enforcement for destruction.

Thanks for the help. Can anyone end the debate for once and for all?

Did I help explain things, or just confuse you more?

[sromero]

Wow!!

[DDT]

It is not a semi-automatic firearm. It has the potential to become a semi-automatic firearm, a bolt action firearm or a fully automatic firearm. There is no preference on the part of the receiver which it is turned into. However; if it is just the bare receiver you will never have an issue, because no law enforcement is going to see it in your safe unless you are having other "issues" in which case, if they find it you will almost certainly face indictment. If you have the other parts to make a semi-automatic or fully automatic weapon out of the lower you will almost certainly lose. If you have just the bare lower or a bolt action assembly for it you MAY win out in court but you will BE in court if caught.

[sromero]

Or Alyssa Milano

[ohsmily]

So, I have two conflicting answers - one says: "Yes, it is illegal. Remember, the AR lower is the weapon. Everything else is just parts."

The other says: "The frame or receiver of a firearm is not the firearm for the AW section. Possession of a listed bare frame is arguably legal."

Thanks for the help. Can anyone end the debate for once and for all?

DID YOU READ THE REST OF THE SECOND ANSWER???

BTW, he said "arguably." Do you want to spend tens of thousands of dollars arguing that point to a trial court and then to an appellate court?

DO NOT POSSESS A LISTED LOWER unless you want to be a test case for an issue that is not important (why bother with a listed lower when unlisted ones are just as good).

[bwiese]

Sromero:

Gene beat me to it above with some of the quoted pieces.

Yes, someone possessing a stripped 'listed' lower in CA likely has a quite defendable case - but this conduct is not at all recommended!! Immediate action by the owner of such an item needs to be taken to avoid/mitigate legal issues.

Folks suddently finding themselves in possession of an illegal listed AW are advised to *immediately* strip it to the bare listed receiver (any barrel should be removed). That does not erase the prior crime of unreg'd AW possession, but it raises the burden of proof if something happens (providing defendant keeps his mouth shut!) and renders the case into a defendable/resolvable state.

If the person who finds himself possessing (either via above dismantlement process or just owning the plain listed receiver) a stripped 'listed' receiver, he should NOT transport that receiver AT ALL (i.e., try to move that listed AW out of California). Transportation charges involving an unreg'd AW are felonies, while by contrast simple possession of an unreg'd AW is a wobbler (felony/misdemeanor). An alternative nuisance charge as a negotiated outcome is also possible. By contrast, idiotically attempting to move it out of the state can jump its owner from the frying pan into the fire - bumping up a wobbler into a felony - with just a traffic stop for a busted taillight.

Finally, a person finding himself possessing a stripped 'listed' AW receiver in CA should IMMEDIATELY call an attorney who can make contact with local LE agency for legal surrender of the listed receiver, without charges being filed. This may actually better than destruction of the receiver in many circumstances.