Out of State - Family Transfers??? Wait this looks to be another loophole...

[Librarian]

I think I see where the DOJ person is becoming confused.

ID-Gramps is giving handgun to CA-Granddaughter.

For whatever reason, Gramps is choosing to ship ID-FFL to CA-FFL - perfectly legal.

DOJ person is reading the transfer as instate intrafamilial, I think. DOJ is notoriously uninformed about interstate transfers; it's the pits that FFLs have to know both CA and Fed regs, but can't get competent advice in one place.

It's not instate intrafamilial. Think of it as ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says "I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

You know the transfer is intrafamilial - so whatever the gun is, as long as it's not an assault weapon, you don't need to worry about the Roster.

But it's interstate, so Feds over-ride CA's intrafamilial form. This is like a PPT with extra fees - the CA-FFL collects a transfer fee and a DROS fee, and you all do 4473 and DROS paperwork, and the FFL takes custody of the weapon for 10 days or until DOJ rejects the transfer. The CA-FFL follows CA law for transferring a handgun to an unlicensed person - HSC required, safety demo required, safety device required.

[ZirconJohn]

I think I see where the DOJ person is becoming confused.

ID-Gramps is giving handgun to CA-Granddaughter.

For whatever reason, Gramps is choosing to ship ID-FFL to CA-FFL - perfectly legal.

DOJ person is reading the transfer as instate intrafamilial, I think. DOJ is notoriously uninformed about interstate transfers; it's the pits that FFLs have to know both CA and Fed regs, but can't get competent advice in one place.

It's not instate intrafamilial. Think of it as ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says "I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

You know the transfer is intrafamilial - so whatever the gun is, as long as it's not an assault weapon, you don't need to worry about the Roster.

But it's interstate, so Feds over-ride CA's intrafamilial form. This is like a PPT with extra fees - the CA-FFL collects a transfer fee and a DROS fee, and you all do 4473 and DROS paperwork, and the FFL takes custody of the weapon for 10 days or until DOJ rejects the transfer. The CA-FFL follows CA law for transferring a handgun to an unlicensed person - HSC required, safety demo required, safety device required.

Thank you Librarian,

Okay... we are close to understanding. We are going to be good info contact by the time we done with this.

If as you say, "ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says 'I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

Both Gramps and GD at my shop, I say... Good! You are here! You drove this gorgeous 1911 to your granddaughter... (This the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil thing we discussed yesterday - it's not right, but we have what we have)... I continue talking w/ Gramps; here is a form REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION... take it home, fill it out, send it to DOJ with $19, give the 1911 to little Jane and vwalla! - Done.

I don't want no dang money... I am dealing with a Grampa and Granddaughter situation here... this is American Heritage.

However, if you gonna SHIP the 1911 - ID FFL Dealer to CA FFL Dealer. Granddaughter comes in... She says to me, "okay, I'm here for my Grampa's Gun to fill out the paperwork".

See, that 1911 is now entered in my Acquisition Book, and it requires a 4473, and DROS Entry System to release i.e. disposition.

Question: Am I REQUIRED to enter an HSC Number the on-line DOJ DROS Entry System?

NO.

This DROS is entered in 'Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt' heading... then you enter the handgun, because it is NOT on the 'Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale' the drop down window lists ALL handgun manufactures on the market... go to 'Purchaser' tab... look down below... there is an exempt title called 'HSC Exemption Code' - what does 'exemption' mean? Lastly select 'Operation of Law Representative' in the drop-down window of HSC Exemption.

Do you want to have little Jane the Granddaughter take an HSC Test? Okay, good... you may do that... want to charge $25 for the HSC Card? You may do that as well... your discretion.

Scenario 1:
Is little Jane new to firearms? Then I would have her take the test, and we talk about safety, do the HSC Safety Demo... I would probably charge her my cost of the HSC Test $15, and not $25... I dunno, it's a Grampa thing!

Scenario 2:
Is Little Jane NOT so little? She conveys to you that she is an avid shooter, and through brief conversation you say to yourself... gee, little Jane actually big Jane and she knows her guns! - I would NEVER even mention HSC!

And yes the 10 day waiting period does apply, proof of residence etc.

This is the conversation I had with the DOJ Rep yesterday.

Please explain what you mean here: "...until DOJ rejects the transfer..." (?)

[Librarian]

If as you say, "ID-Gramps walks into your CA-FFL and says 'I know I need to use a CA FFL to satisfy those federal guys on an interstate transfer. I want to give this 1911 to my granddaughter, here. What do we both do?"

Both Gramps and GD at my shop, I say... Good! You are here! You drove this gorgeous 1911 to your granddaughter... (This the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil thing we discussed yesterday - it's not right, but we have what we have)... I continue talking w/ Gramps; here is a form REPORT OF OPERATION OF LAW OR INTRA-FAMILIAL HANDGUN TRANSACTION... take it home, fill it out, send it to DOJ with $19, give the 1911 to little Jane and vwalla! - Done.

If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

I don't want no dang money... I am dealing with a Grampa and Granddaughter situation here... this is American Heritage.

You're a particularly nice guy if you'll waive your interstate transfer fee for intrafamilial transfers.

However, if you gonna SHIP the 1911 - ID FFL Dealer to CA FFL Dealer. Granddaughter comes in... She says to me, "okay, I'm here for my Grampa's Gun to fill out the paperwork".

See, that 1911 is now entered in my Acquisition Book, and it requires a 4473, and DROS Entry System to release i.e. disposition.

And so should it be if he walks in from ID rather than ships it from an ID FFL. The gun is still, legally, coming from ID.

Question: Am I REQUIRED to enter an HSC Number the on-line DOJ DROS Entry System?

NO.

This DROS is entered in 'Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt' heading... then you enter the handgun, because it is NOT on the 'Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale' the drop down window lists ALL handgun manufactures on the market... go to 'Purchaser' tab... look down below... there is an exempt title called 'HSC Exemption Code' - what does 'exemption' mean? Lastly select 'Operation of Law Representative' in the drop-down window of HSC Exemption.

...

This is the conversation I had with the DOJ Rep yesterday.

Not being an FFL, therefore not having access to the DROS software, I can't criticize this, but it sounds wrong.

If it were the case that this were an in-CA intrafamilial transfer, then Gramps and Granddaughter wouldn't be there at all - no FFL needed, just file the form and pay the fee, and the HSC is obviously on the honor system. But the PC I posted is quite definite that the transferee in an intrafamilial handgun transaction must have the HSC.

Please explain what you mean here: "...until DOJ rejects the transfer..." (?)

Ah - Granddaughter may be a felon and fail the background check; if that were to be so, DOJ rejects the transfer, and you are supposed to not deliver it to Granddaughter, and if I understand correctly, you are required to return the gun to the seller/transferor (after a DROS background check of the transferor!).

Honestly, I think you got the janitor at DOJ, not a firearms specialist.

[ZirconJohn]

If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

No, not encourage... as I said previous, it's mot right... but would be okay if done. DOJ says DO NOT recomend this, but would suffice to complete transaction this way. Transactions just happen this way.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

Yup... academic.

You're a particularly nice guy if you'll waive your interstate transfer fee for intrafamilial transfers.

Thank you... I love American Heritage, if I wasn't a gun dealer I would be a historian.

And so should it be if he walks in from ID rather than ships it from an ID FFL. The gun is still, legally, coming from ID.

Yes! Exactly.

Not being an FFL, therefore not having access to the DROS software, I can't criticize this, but it sounds wrong.

I know... I gree, sounds wrong to me too! In fact it sounds so wrong, I called DOJ again the other day when we first this volly, I called though I knew the answer. HSC Exempt/Operation of Law Represientative = NO HSC Documentation. Now I shall reiterate; does NOT mean you don't have to issue one, or get photo copy of their card (if they have one), just means "not required".

If it were the case that this were an in-CA intrafamilial transfer, then Gramps and Granddaughter wouldn't be there at all - no FFL needed, just file the form and pay the fee, and the HSC is obviously on the honor system. But the PC I posted is quite definite that the transferee in an intrafamilial handgun transaction must have the HSC.

Well, yes according to Law... not according to paperwork. I know... it's weird. Now, check it out... I will call DOJ again whenever I do another deal like this.

Ah - Granddaughter may be a felon and fail the background check; if that were to be so, DOJ rejects the transfer, and you are supposed to not deliver it to Granddaughter, and if I understand correctly, you are required to return the gun to the seller/transferor (after a DROS background check of the transferor!).

Oh ya... okay, I know that, just didn't finish the sentence.

Honestly, I think you got the janitor at DOJ, not a firearms specialist.

Nope... I call DOJ ALL THE TIME! In fact... you call them and discuss this and get back to me. This is very interesting material... I mean, you a very smart guy and I know if I have a question you probably have the answer. Please call DOJ and let's see, I would like to be in perfect agrement what we have here, and settle this question of Intra-Familial Operation of Law.

Note: I gotta get them quote tags figured out, my post inside your post... I know how to do it... no time right now I gotta get to work. Thanks, jd

[bwiese]

Nope... OI call DOJ ALL THE TIME! In fact... you call them and discuss this and get back to me. This is very interesting material... I mean, you a very smart guy and I know if I have a question you probably have the answer. Please call DOJ and let's see, I would like to be in perfect agrement what we have here, and settle this question of Intra-Familial Operation of Law.

Calling DOJ is irrelevant. You are talking to glorified clerks/secretaries there.

There's a 50% chance you will get a correct answer from the phone staff there except for typical routine paperwork stuff. The DOJ staff often operates on assumptions & approximations of the law, not the law itself.

You will find better analysis/discussion here than from most DOJ staffers.

DOJ BoF has given many incorrect answers, esp in relation to Federal matters that overlap CA matters and in fact several DOJ staffers were recommending committing Federal felonies.

[Librarian]

If Gramps lives in ID instead of CA, and you do this, you have encouraged Gramps to violate Federal law.

No, not encourage... as I said previous, it's mot right... but would be okay if done. DOJ says DO NOT recomend this, but would suffice to complete transaction this way. Transactions just happen this way.

I sure hope 'transactions do NOT just happen this way'. It's not OK, at all.

18 USC 922 (a)(5) says a non-licensed person may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person who does not live in the same state where the seller/transferor lives. ID-Gramps has no license. CA-Granddaughter does not live in ID, where Gramps lives. The transaction must go through an FFL in the state of the transferee - in this case, the daughter who lives in CA, and you, the CA FFL.

Yup... academic.

Not academic at all. The penalty for violating 18 USC 922 (a)(5) is FIVE YEARS IN THE FEDERAL PENITENTIARY.(or a $10,000 fine, IIRC)

CA DOJ doesn't care. They're not responsible for enforcing Federal law - but BATF thinks you, as a licensed firearms dealer, are. The Feds have no concept of 'intrafamilial transfer'.

See this post for more info.

If the handgun comes in from an owner in another state besides the one where you do business, the gun MUST go through the 4473 process.

And California says if you, as an FFL, deliver a handgun to an unlicensed person, you have to do a bunch of things you know very well - DROS, waiting period, HSC, handling demonstration, and safety device/lock.

[ZirconJohn]

Calling DOJ is irrelevant. You are talking to glorified clerks/secretaries there.

There's a 50% chance you will get a correct answer from the phone staff there except for typical routine paperwork stuff. The DOJ staff often operates on assumptions & approximations of the law, not the law itself.

You will find better analysis/discussion here than from most DOJ staffers.

DOJ BoF has given many incorrect answers, esp in relation to Federal matters that overlap CA matters and in fact several DOJ staffers were recommending committing Federal felonies.

Thank you Bwiese... and thank you Librarian,

Okay to call you BW and LB?

Here's the way I see things...

BW has approx 357.50 posts per month
LB has approx 72.50 posts per month

I am a just a new kid on the block here at CG.

Been in firearms sales in a retail store here in Ukiah, I was there four (4) years... we averaged 5 to 7 DROS applications per day between about four employees, including owners.

So I have done my share...

Now I own a business, I work out of my home and thank you Chief Dewey of Ukiah Police Dept for helping me out with that deal.

I run a very good business from my home... what being in the business both as an employee and now an owner.

I am not an expert. I think no-one can ever become an expert at this DOJ thing..., so we need all the help we can get. The important thing here is that the customer, the gun buyer gets what they want, and we get it to them the RIGHT way.

So... what I am asking is this here... can I stay in touch with you guys and ask questions even if it's run of the mill, sound stupid type questions... as I say, I am not an expert. I have only one goal in my business and that's to get it to the customer the RIGHT way!

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

Are we good with that?

ZJ

[bwiese]

So... what I am asking is this here... can I stay in touch with you guys and ask questions even if it's run of the mill, sound stupid type questions... as I say, I am not an expert. I have only one goal in my business and that's to get it to the customer the RIGHT way!

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

There are very many bright and friendly people here who want to help gun deealers and owners be successful, stay out of trouble, and yet at the same time not be limited to 'approximate' law but what is actually legal.

And feel free to call me anything but late to dinner

[Librarian]

Thank you Bwiese... and thank you Librarian,

Okay to call you BW and LB?

With 430 post per month between the two of yous... I think I am making friends with the right people on the block, as a new kid that is...

Are we good with that?

ZJ

Definitely I'm good with that - and don't hesitate to point out things that don't look right. Re-evaluation is usually a good idea. I know I've changed my mind about stuff from feedback here, and I'm sure I will again!