With a CCW in California, am I allowed to OC loaded?

[CitaDeL]

Theoretically, it is possible for a Sheriff in a county or less than (IIRC) 200,000 inhabitants to issue a License to Carrry Loaded and Exposed. However, I have never heard of one being so issued.
...
According to my copy of "stay out of jail," California courts have given a very broad meaning to the word "Concealed." My edition says: "If any part of the gun is concealed, even just the clip, the gun can be considered to be a concealed gun."

Fixed it for you. And Im sure you meant magazine, as a 'clip' is not integral to the operation of a firearm in just the same way a speed loader is not part of a revolver. You are also correct in the fact that there has been 'no issuance' of LTC 'loaded and exposed'. I asked on three occasions and was denied both an application and an amendment to my license.

I would have to go back and read the statute in detail, but my recollection is: strangely enough, the statute doesn't anywhere mandate that it's concealed. In fact, Chief Bratton took advantage of that, by using his CCW as an open carry permit. I think the permit allows it (again, I would need to look over the statute again to be sure).

Interesting. Perhaps this tidbit of information could be useful in establishing another angle on 14th amendment grounds for those who have had their licenses revoked for deliberate or incidental exposed carry. Your recollection is correct. And as someone has pointed out, concealed means concealed- but they are reading it through as if the license prohibits an action, rather than allows one. The licence allows concealment. Unless the restriction is expressed and printed on the license, it is my opinion that it doesnt exist.

I'm sorry, what does this say? The reason I ask is my CCW has no restrictions listed on it. Back in the mid/late 90's it used to have a list of places "off-limits" but not now. Is this an issue?

Yes, it is an issue.

12050 (b) A license may include any reasonable restrictions or conditions which the issuing authority deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under which the person may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

In short, if an issuing authority wants to prohibit you from carrying your listed firearm in an exposed fashion or prohibit carry in a shoulder holster, fanny pack or purse, or they wanted to limit you to the county of issuance, they could enact a restriction.

12050 (c) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be indicated on any license issued.

As I pointed out before, having them printed on the license is important in that it establishes limitations on the licensee and tells the LEO's what they are, in the event of a stop. If an issuing agency enacts a restriction prohibiting carry where alcohol is served, it would be impossible for a law enforcement agency from another jursdiction to know that restriction existed. On the flip side it would be generally assumed that since no restrictions were listed on the license, that there were none- and the exemptions for licensees would be valid regardless of place, manner, and circumstances- even exposed carry.

[CitaDeL]

If Chief Bratton open carried on a CCW license, and there's evidence that some city attorney stated that it would be lawful for him to carry on such a license openly, we need to find it, quickly.

Absolutely. You know, I can't agree with you more.

[strega7]

Yes, it is an issue.

So in my situation, it "could" be an issue for the issuing agency if I were somewhere they didn't intend for me to be CCWing and an "issue" arose?

[Theseus]

Haha...I don't mind too much...I don't really have any desire to get a CCW...I just wish I could openly carry loaded...it would save a lot of grief...

To me 12031 and 626.9 need to go. 626.9 might just be an enhancement for someone with intent or a gang.drug dealer....something other than someone who would otherwise be legally carrying.

[PressCheck]

It's a license to carry a Concealed Weapon. ie: CCW

I have a UNRESTRICTERD CA CCW, and would never consider OC. I'd lose the element of suprise, and "freak" people out.

[CalCop]

when previous in my studies I recall 626.9 having an exemption for CCW holders. I went to look at the PC today and I didn't find it. . . Am I missing it, or did it never exist in the first place?

626.9. (l) This section does not apply to...a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4...

[CalCop]

According to my copy of "stay out of jail," California courts have given a very broad meaning to the word "Concealed." My edition says: "If any part of the gun is concealed, even just the clip, the gun can be considered to be a concealed gun."

AND
3. It was substantially concealed on the defendant’s person.

[CitaDeL]

So in my situation, it "could" be an issue for the issuing agency if I were somewhere they didn't intend for me to be CCWing and an "issue" arose?

Yes. Best basic example; Sheriff's Department issues LTC concealed to you and in their packet of information they indicate that you may not carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for on site consumption. The restriction does not appear on your license. You go out with friends to a restaurant that unbeknownst to you, sells beer and wine. Someone sees your weapon in incidental exposure and deputies from the issuing agency are summoned for a MWAG. They ask to speak with you and you're identified as a licensee.(Yoink!) There goes your license. While your license may not indicate this restriction, the authorities to date are under the impression that they can revoke for any reason, even when they dont follow the law.

It's a license to carry a Concealed Weapon. ie: CCW

I have a UNRESTRICTERD CA CCW, and would never consider OC. I'd lose the element of suprise, and "freak" people out.

Good for you. I still think you're reading it as if licensing prohibits to licensees what is legal for everyone else to do.

Can anyone show me the clause, subsection, or phrase in 12050 that refers to the license to carry as a "CCW"? Nope. CCW is in the Cal Penal Code, but it refers to an endorsment that only retired peace officers can acquire. See 12027 (B) and (E). If you are not a retired peace officer you cannot have a CCW endorsement. But you may obtain a license to conceal your weapon.

Can anyone show me the statute, clause, subsection, or phrase in the California Penal Code including 12050 that prohibits exposed carry, accidental exposed carry, weapon printing, as it relates to those licensed to carry concealed? Yes, yes... 626.9, 12031, 171(b)- but they all have an exemption for licensees. Again, the only thing that could prohibit open carry by a licensee is for an issuing agency to enact a restriction and put it on the license. Even then, the 'reasonableness' could be challenged as it creates a situation where two classes of citizens are treated differently.

The 'element of surprise' is not a deterent to crime. Waiting until a crime is being commited to take action to put a stop to it is not 'prevention'.

A criminal does not know who may be armed- so if by concealing and retaining the element of surprise, are you not making yourself more attractive to the criminal by appearing weak? Are you not at a considerable disadvantage by having the appearance of weakness and then having to draw from concealment, particularly at close range?

On the flip side; An armed man is the deterent. The behavior of those who see an armed man, police or not, is reserved, inhibited. It is from the foreknowledge that if some ill-willed action is taken against the armed person, they are prepared to use that level of force if necessary. Do people really 'freak out'? Seldom. But if they do it is not from terror, but of fear borne in ignorance, unfamiliarity or outrage that someone dare arm themselves in this 'peaceful', 'violence free' utopia we live in.

[Glock22Fan]

Citadel:

I quoted the Machtinger book. In a quote, you use the words that the author used, even when they are incorrect. And, I don't know that he isn't correctly quoting the court case that made that determination, even though they would have been incorrect.

Thank you though for correcting the number of inhabitents, but as they are never issued, the threshold number doesn't matter too much, does it?

Calcop:

Thank you for the later information. That certainly makes more sense.

[Decoligny]

I was wondering, being that a CCW allows one to conceal loaded, if I get a California CCW am I allowed then to OC loaded?

Only in non-prohibited areas of unincorporated territory. Just like everyone else.

[RW Dunn]

I was wondering, being that a CCW allows one to conceal loaded, if I get a California CCW am I allowed then to OC loaded?

If you have a CCW, why would you OC. Just to get attention, its not the attention you want,if not needed

[CSDGuy]

PC 12050 has two kinds of licenses. One is to carry concealed and the other is for open carry. The CCW is valid statewide. The OC license is not. Both licenses carry the same exemptions (AFAIK) with the CCW being an exemption to 12025 as well as being valid statewide... Both are for carrying a weapon that can be concealed upon the person...

[CitaDeL]

One word.

If you have a CCW, why would you OC. Just to get attention, its not the attention you want,if not needed

Choice.

[XDshooter]

To clear up the crap in this thread about the legal stuff.


We are talking about OC loaded in this case.

Now 12027(j) exempts people with a license pursuant to 12050 (CCW) from 12025 which is concealed carry.

12027(j)
The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050).

The part in bold is redundant because if you open carried a handgun you wouldn't be breaking 12025 in the first place thus 12025 does not apply.



So now the loaded part.

12031(a) is what you could be charged with. Loaded weapon.

and 12031(b)(6)

12031(b)(6)
The carrying of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person by persons who are authorized to carry those weapons pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.

Notice how is says nothing of the requirement of the handgun being concealed. Also the part in bold simply means handguns. NOTE, it does not allow you to carry loaded anything else like rifles or shotguns.



Simple in the law, but like others have stated, the issuing agency may place restrictions on your license. If you violate those restrictions then they may revoke your license.

[CSDGuy]

The next question becomes: is the person complying with the terms of his/her license? If yes, there would be no 12031 problem. If no, the CCW is invalid and therefore you'd have a 12031 problem...

Remember, that section referred to in 12031 contains two different types of licenses - open and concealed. 12031 doesn't refer to either specifically... it simply allows for loaded carry by someone licensed under 12050. That license prescribes the manner in which that carry is authorized...

Being Devil's Advocate.

Kind of like having a license to drive. Because I have a class C, can I drive a Class A? After all, I have a driver's license...