renting out a milling machine

[buckshot0351]

Please forgive me if I posted in the wrong area. Im looking for an opinion as to what has come of allowing other folks to use ones own personal milling machine. If I fork out the cash for one useing a credit card I would like to let others use it for a small donation in which to pay it off and cover the power bill. Im sure this has been posted before but couldnt find it. Any opinions would be greatly apreciated.

[buckshot0351]

I understand there was some shananagins going on under color of law when clearly there is no law. Kind of like the atf asking ammo depot (I think it was) to take tanarite off the shelf when theres no law restricting its sale. Dont know how accurate that is, second hand information from a while ago. I would like to have my line in the sand but wondering if theres real ramifications that stick or if its all just intimidation b.s. by the brown shirts.

[edgerly779]

It is a gray area to some and black and white to others. The consensus is no rentals let someone use your tools probably ok. Rent the tools on your premises no cigar. Donations a thin way to try to skate around the issue. I was using my partners sons mill and quit and bought my own. I like to be autonomous anyway. Do it yourself and be proud of the successes and feel bad upon the failures. Any failure that does not injure you makes you stronger.

[Tincon]

You should probably ask a lawyer.

[IncVoid]

woke up to fox40 saying some guys were using a mill and 80% blanks, money changing hands and saying it boils down to walking in with cash, and leaving with a gun. but who knows.

http://fox40.com/2014/02/27/illegal-assault-gun-makers-busted-by-feds/

Watch and see what they did wrong and don't repeat. Queue the 80% panic buy? Coin the term 80% pre-ban?
Grandfathers 80%

[e90bmw]

I think they were providing both lowers AND finishing them.
They also had fully assembled weapons and some were full auto according to the full story I read.

I doubt letting someone finish a lower they already own would cause an issue, but I'm no attorney.

Milling the 80% lower and providing it and finishing it in the same building is clearly a violation and makes you a manufacturer. I'm not an attorney and I know you can get into trouble with that.

[sofbak]

Rentals, donations, any exchange of funds for services is a gray area that could get you into a lot of undesirable issues.

But the purchase and sale of the equipment (as long as it's a legit transaction) may be a solution. Here is a "model" to consider

5 guys want to mill their 80's. Guy one with the garage and the desire to have a mill buys one. He uses it to mill his lower, and then sells the mill to guy 2 for $25 (or whatever) less than what he paid for it. And provides a legit bill of sale for the transaction.

Guy 2 uses it and sells it to guy 3 for $25 (or whatever) less than what he paid for it. And provides a legit bill of sale for the transaction.

And so on.

At the end of the day, guy 1 (who wanted the mill in the first place) buys it back from the last guy for $25 (or whatever) less than what the last purchaser paid for it. And gets a legit bill of sale for the transaction. All the interim buyers lost $25 in the purchase/personal use, and subsequent sale of the equipment. And at the end of the day guy 1 still has his mill for less than the original purchase price depending on how many times it was sold.

As long as every transaction is legit-i.e. actual cash money changes hands for the sale/purchase of the equipment, and a signed bill of sale is provided, there should be no issue-and you have a garage full of witnesses that can say they actually saw the transactions occur and participated in two of them. And each has a legit bill of sale stating that they bought the equipment for their personal use.

But IANAL and you might want to consult one.

[dantodd]

I want a vending/milling machine at gun shows. Put in your credit card pick your 80% and push "start"

[BumBum]

You should probably ask a lawyer.

Best advice right here.

I doubt letting someone finish a lower they already own would cause an issue, but I'm no attorney.

This is wrong, and is why you need to consult with an attorney.

It is a gray area to some and black and white to others. The consensus is no rentals let someone use your tools probably ok. Rent the tools on your premises no cigar. Donations a thin way to try to skate around the issue.

Accepting "donations" is likely to show that you have an expectation of compensation. If so, you may be considered to be in the manufacturing business with the expectation of making a profit. Take a gander at the letter Ares received from the ATF (http://aresarmor.com/store/media/cms...and-desist.pdf). It seems that you might run into the same issues.

[amxcoder]

I don't know how it would be illegal if your charging for temporary rental of the milling machine. I would think that if someone came over, you charged them for use of your milling machine, and THEY milled it using your milling machine from an 80% that THEY had aquired and brought with them, how that would not be ok? You didn't manufacture it, they did. They just used your tools, that they rented for a period of time.

How is this different than if you went to your local big tool rental facility, and rented one for the day? The only difference is the work took place at your house, but as long as you don't touch the item, or partake in the process, your not the one doing the manufacturing, correct?

I don't know how the law could be interpreted that you have to OWN the mill that you complete your 80% with...

[wildhawker]

You should probably ask a lawyer.

This. It's also safe to say that ATF has been very aggressive in targeting this sort of thing lately, and that there's a very high risk of facing a raid/seizure and possibly even criminal charges.

-Brandon

[6114DAVE]

I keep telling my co-worker that him buying a mill to rent out and doing build parties expecting people to give money to use his mill is not a good idea but he won't listen .

[6114DAVE]

He already bought it and has build parties planned ... Lancaster,ca...I suggest you don't attend them

[wchutt]

Still waiting to hear of a case that does not involve selling of in-shop made lowers and then finishing those, selling silencers/full auto parts, or selling completed lowers (to gang bangers). Have seen one cease and desist letter from Ares. Can someone provide evidence of raid/seizure/prosecution of someone doing basic build parties- AR or AK - like those that have been going on for years?

Bottom line though, you don't want to be the test case, which I believe that is why they have chosen to go this route of announcing a new "interpretation" of the existing law instead of actually charging and prosecuting as would be done if any laws were truly being violated. It is the simple and effective use of terror.

[Rock6.3]

Still waiting to hear of a case that does not involve selling of in-shop made lowers and then finishing those, selling silencers/full auto parts, or selling completed lowers (to gang bangers). Have seen one cease and desist letter from Ares. Can someone provide evidence of raid/seizure/prosecution of someone doing basic build parties- AR or AK - like those that have been going on for years?

Bottom line though, you don't want to be the test case, which I believe that is why they have chosen to go this route of announcing a new "interpretation" of the existing law instead of actually charging and prosecuting as would be done if any laws were truly being violated. It is the simple and effective use of terror.

DrDeath in Sacramento.
No full auto
No silencers
Just simple 80% builds using very nice equipment.