Peņa v. Cid (Handgun Roster) **CERT DENIED 6-15-2020**

[RipVanWinkle]

If the micro stamping goes in to effect, do you think we will still be grandfathered to still own our older NONROOSTER guns?

Yes, they'll be legal to own if they're legal now. You can legally sell them to other CA residents via Private Party Transaction through a dealer. They are grandfathered in. The micro stamping regulation has no effect on what you currently own.

[IVC]

Yes, they'll be legal to own if they're legal now. You can legally sell them to other CA residents via Private Party Transaction through a dealer. They are grandfathered in. The micro stamping regulation has no effect on what you currently own.

Well, that can change with a single AB/SB. They already have the registry...

[Sputnik]

Well, that can change with a single AB/SB. They already have the registry...

And don't anyone think there isn't a desire by the D majority to do just that...it may be illegal as can be but that won't stop the attempts.

[Firefox70066]

Thanks

[Rastoff]

And don't anyone think there isn't a desire by the D majority to do just that...it may be illegal as can be but that won't stop the attempts.

The "safe" handgun roster is illegal. The 10 day wait is illegal. The one handgun in 30 days is illegal. Yes, the law has never stopped them before. It's up to us to challenge them. We do that by supporting organizations like the NRA and Calguns Foundation.

[advocatusdiaboli]

And don't anyone think there isn't a desire by the D majority to do just that...it may be illegal as can be but that won't stop the attempts.

[OleCuss]

It's probably best not to assume too much intellect on the part of our lords and masters.

I think a lot of those who are voting on RKBA-related matters and such really believe that they are going to decrease the violence and improve freedom and general well-being. The sacrifices of our freedom are minor to them and the nirvana which will result is enough to justify their screwing over the citizenry.

If their adjustments of our ability to exercise our rights result in our inability to exercise those rights at all then that is an unintended but tolerable consequence. After all, we who actually believe in our right to self-defense are just a bunch of uncouth knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.

Now there are some of them who just want to obliterate our right to self-defense but a lot of them really don't see it that way. A gradual erosion works just fine with them because they can justify each step in their limited intellect as being for our own good.

It's disgusting, but that is how I think many/most of our overlords view it. They can actually justify it in their challenged noggins as advancing our overall rights!

[RipVanWinkle]

I thought it would be helpful to show this graph depicting the historical numbers of DROS transactions. I had to print and scan from the original source document to get this to show up.


Scan 150700000.jpg

The original is saved here:



Or it can be found on DOJ's website here along with the data chart:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/dros_chart.pdf

I don't have time to comment on all the interesting things about this graph at the moment, but I'll just point out a few things. The sales of all guns really accelerates and goes exponential in the last few years, the classic sign of a bubble that's about to burst. Note that the long gun sales turn down in 2014, but not the handgun sales. That's the panic to get in before long gun registration and the end of face to face C&R sales for long guns. Hand guns will follow with the microstamping mandate, but there's some uncertainty still there.

My best guess is that gun sales will collapse to the level that they had been between 1996 and 2010, in the 300,000 to 400,000 per year range, but they could easily wind up below that. I base that on the drop in sales from the range from about 1980 to 1992, compared to 1994 to 2010 when the DROS system really got going and gun stores began to disappear. These numbers would have to be adjusted for population gain/loss, but I doubt that would change the picture very much.

How can the DOJ's own numbers be useful in this case, or is that even possible?

[rkt88edmo]

Nice little spikes in DROSs at both the 1994 Federal AWB and 2000 CA AWB (SB23) with a little broadening of the shoulder of the latter due to 9/11.

From there things dip a bit and we have a steady increase in the rate during the GWOT/Sandbox II until the election of POTUS44 at which point things take a bit of a hockey stick that peaks with a buying frenzy post Newtown/Sandy Hook.

I'm curious if we will go back below 500k that quickly, probably depends on how stifling the CA-HSRO is to sales this year and then who gets elected in 2016. Things definitely looked to have peaked, but they could easily stay well above the 500k line.

[monk]

That graph doesn't show much other than lots of guns being sold. Many of the same people buy lots of guns.

[Sputnik]

The "safe" handgun roster is illegal. The 10 day wait is illegal. The one handgun in 30 days is illegal. Yes, the law has never stopped them before. It's up to us to challenge them. We do that by supporting organizations like the NRA and Calguns Foundation.

I do, every chance I get
I'm not just dooming and glooming...I'm trying to fight my own pessimism! I can be my own worst enemy sometimes. The rest of the time Sacramento steps in.

[Vlad 11]

That graph doesn't show much other than lots of guns being sold. Many of the same people buy lots of guns.

Interesting graph. Lots of firearms being transferred. It hard to deny that the increasingly harsh antigun schemes and legislation is a driving force for gun sales.

One also needs to consider whats not counted on top of the tremedous spike. Multiple buys of longguns on one dros and ftf c&r sales. In addition to illegal and undocumented sales. The numbers are significantly higher than the graph represents i suspect

[RRangel]

I have to go further and say that the roster, is an attempt by gun prohibitionists, to discourage and eliminate the RKBA for the general public. A violation of the right under the guise of safety. In this case, they hate the right so much, revenue be damned.

When it first became law, and many of the "junk" guns passed with flying colors, there was noise from unhappy legislators about adding requirements, or more testing. Which was proposed to make all those "dangerous" guns fail.

A law claiming that perfectly good pistols are unsafe, when law enforcement are exempted, is illogical on its face. Unless the whole premise is a ploy. Which it is.

The elimination of private party sales, and now the roster, is part of a framework that gun prohibitionists are using to eliminate gun ownership. They just won't come out and say it, because the spirit of their intent is too drastic, and violates our Constitution. That's especially today.

An unsafe handgun act would have been a simple set of restrictions based on concealability and user safety: barrel lengths (like the exemption rule for SA revolvers), safety mechanisms, etc.

A roster is a revenue machine.

[CZ man in LA]

That graph doesn't show much other than lots of guns being sold. Many of the same people buy lots of guns.

Yes. But same people who buy lots of guns have always bought a lot of guns at any given time. The graphs shows it was pretty flat between 2000-2008, and same people who buy lots of guns had bought lots of guns during that period too.

[RipVanWinkle]

Nice little spikes in DROSs at both the 1994 Federal AWB and 2000 CA AWB (SB23) with a little broadening of the shoulder of the latter due to 9/11.

From there things dip a bit and we have a steady increase in the rate during the GWOT/Sandbox II until the election of POTUS44 at which point things take a bit of a hockey stick that peaks with a buying frenzy post Newtown/Sandy Hook.

I'm curious if we will go back below 500k that quickly, probably depends on how stifling the CA-HSRO is to sales this year and then who gets elected in 2016. Things definitely looked to have peaked, but they could easily stay well above the 500k line.

You could be right. The rate of decrease in roster listings is hard to predict, especially because the manufacturers may not attempt to implement microstamping. However, the semi-auto pistols are the biggest category of handguns in terms of sales, and it's a category in which the competition is intense, so new models and upgrades to older models occur frequently. Without microstamping these may not be eligible for listing on the roster. As this process continues the old grandfathered models will cease to be made and will drop out.

At some point it seems that a claim of "substantial burden" would have to be taken seriously. There are other issues with the roster that might be vulnerable as availability decreases. For instance, Fabio Gets Goosed gives an example of the futility of trying to make a "substantial burden" claim out of something like:

I noticed that the Colt "Centennial Anniversary America Remembers" 1911 was removed from the roster recently. That was the one I wanted. None of the Colt 1911s still on the roster are going to cut it, especially not the Audie Murphy Tribute, Brothers Forever Vietnam Tribute, D Day Tribute, Elvis Presley, Fearless Defenders of Freedom, George S. Patton Tribute, John Wayne Tribute, Rampant Colt Tribute, Saluting America's Armed Forces, Samuel Colt 200th Anniversary, Texas Rangers Tribute, Vietnam War Tribute, or the We the People models.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=15931804&postcount=1493

He was pointing out by analogy how weak the individual plaintiff's burden claims are, but maybe he was also teasing us. Those are all limited to 500 copies of each edition to ensure rarity for collectors. As each edition sells out they will drop off the list. But the way they are made is interesting. America Remembers orders 500 identical plain jane 1911s from Colt and then does the engraving for each edition. But underneath, as far as being functional firearms is concerned, they are clones. Nevertheless, they occupy 14 model listings on the roster. As a further irony, nobody would buy one of them as a reasonable choice for personal defense. They are expensive and loading and firing one would diminish its value. The roster is inflated with loads of these handguns that are only minor variations on a cloned mechanism.

Without some better evidence of "substantial burden" this case will lose again on appeal. Maybe the best thing to do at this point is to stall. The courts and the government make ample use of that tactic.