Miller v. Bonta 9th Ckt "assault weapons": Held for Duncan result 1-26-24

[darkwater34]

The M16 and AR15 are only similar in appearance and the way they operate. What sets them apart is an M16 or A4 has full automatic functionality as the AR15 has the ability to function only as a semiautomatic rifle. The M16, A4, and the AR15 all operate on a gas impingement system whether it is a direct gas or piston driven system. The M16 and A4 have a selector switch SAFE, SEMI, BURST, AUTO as THE AR15 also has a selector switch but only with the ability to either be SAFE, or FIRE. Though they appear to be the same only in appearance they do not have the ability to function the same without modifications that would require some extra milling the right type of bolt carrier and the addition of changing the trigger group and adding a searer. All legal firearm owners that possess the knowledge of making these modifications also know the ramifications of modifying their legally owned firearms and will not make these modifications. I don't care for forced reset triggers or bump stocks because of several reasons the number one reason is ammo is very expensive and scarce, also the precision is really awful when it comes to rapid fire which its only purpose is to suppress an opponent or opponents return fire rate. The varmints that I hunt on my ranch don't shoot back so there is no need for inaccurate rapid fire. Coyotes, Havolina, Mountain Lions, Bobcats.

[Bhobbs]

This all comes back to SCOTUS being passive and ineffective. The circuits know they have the real power and they plan on using it. Liberal SCOTUS would never let this happen to their pet rights.

As long as SCOTUS allows this to continue, they are just as responsible for the violation of our rights as the anti gunners.

[AlmostHeaven]

I am a supporter of neither the panel nor the State.

As a side note, unless you have stood in front of an inquiry panel with a complete presentation ready to go, and were interrupted immediately to answer scripted questions not in your presentation and survived, then griping about what the presenters did/should not have done is irrelevant. As the old saying goes:

If you find yourself waist deep in the swamp surrounded by alligators, it is difficult to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

I thought that, given the environment, our attorney did well as one of the justices actually acknowledged his counter position that in common use for defense was simply in common use. I thought our guy did well to make the point that this is not about the guns in use in CA, but the SCOTUS based its opinion of common use through out the land. That looked like the judges were trying to de-scope the range of common use. Our guy pounded them with statistics.

In the end, this panel seems reluctant to make any move which might establish a precedent (conflict) with an en banc panel seated to review Duncan. Based solely on that, and not the merits, I expect the panel to give the state what it wants and avoid the controversy should the panel rule in a way which might influence (or piss off) the en banc, or create a decision which the panel members might be reminded of if the panel members were, in future, called to serve en banc on a similar issue.

I do not understand this passage. The two Democratic-appointed judges on the Miller v. Bonta panel know the final decision will uphold the California assault weapons ban. The liberal majority on the Duncan v. Bonta en banc panel nakedly plans to affirm the constitutionality of the California high-capacity magazine ban.

Why would anything from the two cases conflict? The 3-judge panel will not get reversed by the Ninth Circuit en banc!

[Bhobbs]

Let?s say this case does get stayed pending Duncan, we can be realistically looking at 2026 for just the panel decision and that?s banking on Duncan not being stayed pending Rahimi or any remands.

[bigstick61]

The M16 and AR15 are only similar in appearance and the way they operate. What sets them apart is an M16 or A4 has full automatic functionality as the AR15 has the ability to function only as a semiautomatic rifle. The M16, A4, and the AR15 all operate on a gas impingement system whether it is a direct gas or piston driven system. The M16 and A4 have a selector switch SAFE, SEMI, BURST, AUTO as THE AR15 also has a selector switch but only with the ability to either be SAFE, or FIRE. Though they appear to be the same only in appearance they do not have the ability to function the same without modifications that would require some extra milling the right type of bolt carrier and the addition of changing the trigger group and adding a searer. All legal firearm owners that possess the knowledge of making these modifications also know the ramifications of modifying their legally owned firearms and will not make these modifications. I don't care for forced reset triggers or bump stocks because of several reasons the number one reason is ammo is very expensive and scarce, also the precision is really awful when it comes to rapid fire which its only purpose is to suppress an opponent or opponents return fire rate. The varmints that I hunt on my ranch don't shoot back so there is no need for inaccurate rapid fire. Coyotes, Havolina, Mountain Lions, Bobcats.

AR-15 is a select-fire design. Certainly all of the originals made by Armalite were select-fire. Plenty of select-fire Colts are marked AR-15 as well, some of which were sold to the general public. The M-16 is just the military designation of an AR-15 variant. Some variants remove the ability to fire on burst or auto but the basic design is the same; the semi-auto versions are just modifications of a select-fire design. In some cases, drilling the hole for retaining pin for the auto sear, installing that part, and installing a three-position selector, or swapping selectors and installing a DIAS are all that is needed to make the weapon select-fire. To argue otherwise is disingenuous at best, IMO.

The AR-15 is a martial design and martial arms are at the core of what the RKBA is all about and we should not shy from or be ashamed of that, or deny it and accept the other side's assertion that martial arms are bad (which is why I'm not fond of the "modern sporting rifle" euphemism).

[splithoof]

This all comes back to SCOTUS being passive and ineffective. The circuits know they have the real power and they plan on using it. Liberal SCOTUS would never let this happen to their pet rights.

As long as SCOTUS allows this to continue, they are just as responsible for the violation of our rights as the anti gunners.

Well said.
I have given up long ago on the belief that ANY so-called conservative court would ever be able to ACTUALLY REVERSE IN PRACTICE what has been happening to gun owners. They are all paper tigers, eunuchs and buffoons who masquerade as some kind of defenders of freedom. They have evolved into a perverse joke scrawled on the walls of a fouled Andy Gump. At the slow rate that all these hot farts are being heard, my future grandchildren will be growing old.

[SpudmanWP]

Let?s say this case does get stayed pending Duncan, we can be realistically looking at 2026 for just the panel decision and that?s banking on Duncan not being stayed pending Rahimi or any remands.

IIRC the panel has an "expedite" order tied to the stay which is why it had oral arguments before Duncan.

[BAJ475]

Well said.
I have given up long ago on the belief that ANY so-called conservative court would ever be able to ACTUALLY REVERSE IN PRACTICE what has been happening to gun owners. They are all paper tigers, eunuchs and buffoons who masquerade as some kind of defenders of freedom. They have evolved into a perverse joke scrawled on the walls of a fouled Andy Gump. At the slow rate that all these hot farts are being heard, my future grandchildren will be growing old.

I wish that I could disagree, but alas, I can not. I am left to wonder if we will fall like Rome because the patriots will not act in time to take out the tyrants before they have destroyed the country.

[darkwater34]

You have to remember how these judges get appointed no matter whether Democrat or Republican appointed they are serving the Military Industrial Complex.
When a judge gets picked to fill a seat they undergo strict scrutiny by Congress.
Also every person that has a seat in congress is also part of the Military Industrial Complex and profits from it's spoils. Yes the Military Industrial Complex controls all three levels of pur government.

[darkwater34]

Now the big question is why does the Military Industrial Complex want the citizens of the United States disarmed?
My theory is once the people discover the sins of the M.I.C. the people will rise up and destroy it.

[Dvrjon]

Except that they didn't. At 40:33, the court goes on, "I understand your opponent says it can be for any lawful purpose,

That?s acknowledgement. I did not say they agreed.

[Drivedabizness]

AR-15 is a select-fire design. Certainly all of the originals made by Armalite were select-fire. Plenty of select-fire Colts are marked AR-15 as well, some of which were sold to the general public. The M-16 is just the military designation of an AR-15 variant. Some variants remove the ability to fire on burst or auto but the basic design is the same; the semi-auto versions are just modifications of a select-fire design. In some cases, drilling the hole for retaining pin for the auto sear, installing that part, and installing a three-position selector, or swapping selectors and installing a DIAS are all that is needed to make the weapon select-fire. To argue otherwise is disingenuous at best, IMO.

The AR-15 is a martial design and martial arms are at the core of what the RKBA is all about and we should not shy from or be ashamed of that, or deny it and accept the other side's assertion that martial arms are bad (which is why I'm not fond of the "modern sporting rifle" euphemism).

You're blurring the issue. Many of John Brownings designs were pitched to the military (because that was the biggest market) not necessarily as "military" arms. Just as there was widespread resistance to eh M1 (considered to be a Mickey Mouse POS) there was widespread resistance to the M16 - especially after the original issues with the powder used in ball ammo). Like Browning, people realized the broad UTILITY of the platform in a civilian version.

We have a tough enough time with the other side conflating facts and plain old making stuff up. There is no need to help them.

Your argument ignores another fundamental truth - we have a right to arms for the lawful purpose of common defense. As such, we SHOULD be able to acquire full auto arms. Since we can't, and since the AR15 platform is the most popular platform in the country, they cannot be banned. Period.

[Bhobbs]

IIRC the panel has an "expedite" order tied to the stay which is why it had oral arguments before Duncan.

My understanding is the motions panel stayed Benitez? ruling pending appeal and ordered no delays to the merits panel, which they promptly ignored.

Now they are going to hold pending Duncan, so they can use the atrocious Duncan ruling to destroy Miller.

SCOTUS decision to GVR Bianchi and Duncan will do more damage to the 2A than Bruen did to help. Duncan GVR was supposed to be a chance for the 9th to get it right. Instead, they turned it into a poison pill that will demolish gun rights in CA for years to come.

[splithoof]

Duncan GVR was supposed to be a chance for the 9th to get it right. Instead, they turned it into a poison pill that will demolish gun rights in CA for years to come.

You think that SCOTUS planned it that way? I tend to believe they did. SCOTUS has had many other opportunities to (at least on paper) end all this BS, but they continue to feed the appellate industry. By the term appellate industry, I am referring to the rise of an entire segment of the legal system that has taken the infinite extending of delayed justice to an art form, one that never ends, and feeds off the pockets of those victims (we gun owners) paying lawyers to continue courtroom theatrics at a level that even Shakespeare would envy.
A death row inmate here in California has much in common with our gun laws in the courts: they know that the appellate process takes literally decades, and that their death from old age is far more likely than anything of finality ever happening. Meanwhile, his victims grow old and die off as well.
Sorry for the rant, but I find it frustrating watching the endless stream of the appellate industry.

[Bhobbs]

You think that SCOTUS planned it that way? I tend to believe they did. SCOTUS has had many other opportunities to (at least on paper) end all this BS, but they continue to feed the appellate industry. By the term appellate industry, I am referring to the rise of an entire segment of the legal system that has taken the infinite extending of delayed justice to an art form, one that never ends, and feeds off the pockets of those victims (we gun owners) paying lawyers to continue courtroom theatrics at a level that even Shakespeare would envy.
A death row inmate here in California has much in common with our gun laws in the courts: they know that the appellate process takes literally decades, and that their death from old age is far more likely than anything of finality ever happening. Meanwhile, his victims grow old and die off as well.
Sorry for the rant, but I find it frustrating watching the endless stream of the appellate industry.

No, I think SCOTUS expects the system to work and the lower courts to follow their rulings. They are like the parent that continues to threaten punishment but never follows through. Everyone knows their threats are empty words.