Lead-Free, Expanding Sidearm Ammo?

[mecam]

Here's a better one.... read the text in RED.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/agentleadflyer1.pdf

Legal Projectiles

The Commission and Department are initiating a process such that the Commission can certify projectiles as meeting the "non-lead" threshold for purposes of these regulations. This public review process will occur between February and June 2008 and will result in a listing of authorized projectiles legal for hunting within the affected area. A list of "non-lead" projectiles for informational purposes only is currently located at

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/nonlead-ammo-ca.pdf.

Possession of lead projectiles within the affected area

The Commission prohibited the possession of lead projectiles, and a firearm capable of firing such projectiles, while big-game or non-game hunting within the specified area. Otherwise, lead projectiles may be possessed.

DFG Contact: Craig Stowers
916-445-3553

cstowers@dfg.ca.gov

[Helpful_Cub]

You may not want an expanding bullet for your purpose. Since your side arm will have less power behind the bullet than your rifle, the bullet needs as much penetration as it can get. Its between 30-50% of the power of a rifle bullet depending on what your carrying. If it opens right away like typical self-defense ammo it may not penetrate deep enough to hit anything critical. Here's the round I carry in my side-arm.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Handgun-Ammunition|/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104372280/Remington174-UMC174-LeadLess8482-9mm-Ammunition-with-Dry-Storage-Box/842731.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-ammunition-handgun-ammunition%2Fremington%2F_%2FN-1100189%2B4294966941%2FNe-4294966941%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104372280%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

The flat nose penetrates about the best of any bullet and the 124-grain is about the heaviest a 9mm can throw. The weight helps it to retain energy and keep the bullet moving deeper into the target. For example if I need to finish an animal, I'd rather have this bullet get to the heart then instantly expand and stop at a rib or in muscle or fat of the chest. Being a heavier round, it also has the benefit of being sub-sonic, so it will be a little quieter in use.

[nick]

Check out lead-free Doubletap ammo. It's cheaper than Cor-bon, and at least as good.

[180ls1]

For sure........Has to be lead free and certified by the state, Even 22 rim fire. I never really understood the idea of a backup. I like handguns as well as anyone and do hunt with them, but you are carrying a rifle with say 3000 ft lbs of energy and backing it up with a handgun with 1/3 to 1/2 of that? It seems that there would be a better use for that extra weight to carry. Unless you didn't trust your rifle in which case I would get one that I trusted. I do hunt with my XP100 in 308 or my M629 but adding another firearm seems unnecessarily redundant.

you have to remember you are being logical and people that made the law are not. So dont try to apply logic to the situation.

[TrailerparkTrash]

22 lead ammo is not legal in the lead free zones either. It is an absolute ban on leaded bullets for the sake of the condors.

Argonaut, I'm sorry, but on this thread you are giving out completely INCORRECT information. In the "Lead Free" zone of CA, lead bullets and lead shot are still LEGAL to use for rabbits, tree squirls and upland game. Period.

Therefore, hunters can legally hunt jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel using lead projectiles, but not ground squirrels in the same area. Part of the reasoning for this is that unlike nongame animals that are hunted and usually left in the field, game species must be retrieved and not wasted."

Read the DFG Q&A about the regs here:http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunti...nformation.pdf

[TrailerparkTrash]

You may not want an expanding bullet for your purpose. Since your side arm will have less power behind the bullet than your rifle, the bullet needs as much penetration as it can get. Its between 30-50% of the power of a rifle bullet depending on what your carrying. If it opens right away like typical self-defense ammo it may not penetrate deep enough to hit anything critical. Here's the round I carry in my side-arm.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Handgun-Ammunition|/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104372280/Remington174-UMC174-LeadLess8482-9mm-Ammunition-with-Dry-Storage-Box/842731.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-ammunition-handgun-ammunition%2Fremington%2F_%2FN-1100189%2B4294966941%2FNe-4294966941%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104372280%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

The flat nose penetrates about the best of any bullet and the 124-grain is about the heaviest a 9mm can throw. The weight helps it to retain energy and keep the bullet moving deeper into the target. For example if I need to finish an animal, I'd rather have this bullet get to the heart then instantly expand and stop at a rib or in muscle or fat of the chest. Being a heavier round, it also has the benefit of being sub-sonic, so it will be a little quieter in use.

Helpful,, I'm not sure about the bullets you're suggeting. I tried to view the picture of those specific bullets and they do not appear to be "expanding or softnose" type bullets. If they are in fact the "expanding or softnose" type, you're all good. Case Closed.

If they are not, then you really need to check your bullets when hunting mammals (big game) in California. The regs state that one needs a SOFTNOSE OR EXPANDING PROJECTILE. "Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.

(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through (h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles;"

(c) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs.


Here is the full section: http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/cu...regs.asp#zoned

[TrailerparkTrash]

There were 3 condors that died this year from lead poisoning, The regs are bound to get tougher.

The three Condors you are refering to were California Condors found dead in......ARIZONA!!!! . We're talking about a different state now that doesn not have the same foolish lead ban law that CA has. Those three dead buzzards have no relevancy for the CA Condor lead free project topic we in Cali are concerned about.

Last year, in 2009 there were only 2 CA condors that died here in California. .... in the hands of ZOO KEEPERS at the LA Zoo, by the way!!! Suppossedly being treated for lead toxicity. Nobody really knows if they died as a direct result of lead poisoning or from shock after being captured and handled by humans at the Zoo.

Below is the LA Times link for the story of the Arizona condors that died in northern ARIZONA:::

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2010/02/lead-poisoning-blamed-for-deaths-of-three-california-condors-in-arizona.html

...And here is the full text of the article in case the link doesn't work:

"Lead poisoning blamed for deaths of three California condors in Arizona
February 23, 2010"Three rare California condors in northern Arizona died last month because they ingested lead pellets while feeding on carrion, according to test results released Monday.

The deaths from lead poisoning are the first in three years among condors in Arizona and Utah, condor recovery program officials said. The Peregrine Fund recovered the bodies of a female condor and her year-old chick from the Grand Canyon and a young male from the Arizona-Utah border last month.

That the birds were foraging in southern Utah presents a challenge for recovery program officials, who now must convince hunters there to stop using lead ammunition.

"We have to remain optimistic because we've seen such progress in Arizona, and I guess what it means is we have more work to do," said Chris Parish, who oversees the release of the condors in Arizona for the fund.

Utah already is educating hunters about the effects that lead ammunition has on condors. The birds feed on dead animals, often big game killed by hunters or the entrails left behind when they are field dressed.

High levels of lead can shut down a condor's digestive system, causing them to starve to death.

Utah's program is modeled after one in Arizona, which asks hunters to voluntarily use lead-free ammunition. Utah plans to give coupons for free non-lead ammunition to hunters in certain areas.

"Utah sportsmen are conservation-minded," Jim Parrish, nongame avian coordinator for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, said in a release. "We're confident they'll step up to the challenge and that our program, combined with the highly successful program in Arizona, will keep the condor population healthy and allow it to grow."

Condors once numbered in the thousands across North America but were nearly extinct by the early 1980s from the effects of hunting, lead poisoning and habitat encroachment. The final 22 were captured in California and a breeding program was started.

There are about 350 condors alive today, with about half in captive breeding programs in California, Arizona and Mexico.

Since the reintroduction program begin in Arizona in 1996, 45 condors have died -- 15 of them from lead poisoning.

Environmental groups pushed for a nationwide ban on lead ammunition, similar to regulations in place in California.

Jeff Miller of the Tucson-based Center for Biological Diversity said the Arizona population continually is exposed to high levels of lead and it was just a matter of time before some ate enough to be killed.

"It's tragic, but it was predictable," he said. "Until we come up with an effective way to keep lead out of the food chain, we're going to keep seeing these periodic tragic events."

Kathy Sullivan, condor program coordinator for Arizona's Department of Game and Fish, said the state's program had a success rate between 80% and 90% over three years. The true test, she said, is in whether Utah hunters join the voluntary effort.

"Until we have similar participation from hunters in Utah, we're really not going to know even how effective our program is," she said. "The bird could eat in Arizona one week and then in Utah the next."

-- Associated Press"

[xLusi0n]

Can we just change it to "California Pigeons" and say F the condors?

[rodeoflyer]

When's the last time you ever petted one?

F 'em.