Firearms in Forests and Parks

[PanamaJack]

I think this is at least one example from the law on when I can go from UOC to loaded:
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12031.(j)(1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
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If we have the phone numbers of all of the district ranger offices and park ranger offices handy in the phone, and if I see something that I believe presents an "immediate, grave danger", my wife pulls her iPhone (LOL), and I ready the G-29SF. Again, likely never need to do this, but if we have advance notice of a threat, and are making the effort to contact local LEO, then it seems like we are in the best position for whatever comes next.

[PanamaJack]

Thanks again, I'm in the process of reading CA PC 197 now. I am comforted by the language "...or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence." At least that clearly establishes the tent wall as a perimeter.

I am also re-reading CA PC 12020 - 12040 and now thinking about it as if I were going to UOC, and what situations would allow me to get a round in the chamber before a problem occurred while still being within the letter of the law. I want to have a game plan before I hit a situation, and there really aren't that many situations to think out in advance since my entire day can be summed up in six words: camping, cooking, hiking, fishing, relaxing, sleeping. I think it is extremely unlikely that I will ever have to use any of this planning, but if I happen to hit that one-in-a-million event, at least now I'll be able to act confidently believing that I am within the letter of the law.

LOL, I'm also having to re-think my entire wardrobe, as everything I have is made for IWB LCC, and most of my shirts are long enough to cover my OWB holsters as well. I assume that an OWB holster that is completely covered by my untucked shirt is either definitely considered concealed or in a grey area (that place I don't want to be)...so I need to pack only shirts that are short or that can actually be tucked into my pants! It is going to feel really, really, really strange trying to make sure my sidearm is always visible, rather than the opposite!

[MudCamper]

OK, so that's about 3.5 out of 9. Not good.

Well, if you haven't been swimming in the muck that is California gun law it certainly is hard to decipher at first.

1) I understand you are trying to find a legal path to LCC. If you plan to carry a semi-auto handgun know that UOC (which you can do just about everywhere in both NP and NF) allows you to carry loaded mags with you. It's obviously not as good as LOC or LCC but it's much less legally entangling.

4) Correct LOC is legal in your campsite in both NP and NF. As to what exactly is your campsite, and how far away from your tent is included, that's not defined. As to legal use of lethal force, in CA you must have "imminent fear of great bodily injury or death".

5) Correct. LOC in your campsite in NP is legal.

[PanamaJack]

[unsolicited ad on]And at the risk of sounding like an *****, I figured best to put money where mouth is. I do appreciate the info here, everyone's time and effort in helping me through the maze, so I just kicked in as a contributor...and I'd encourage everyone else who needs the info and the expertise on this forum to recognize the value of the resource and to do so as well! If I can't vote to change the laws as a non-resident, at least I can help feed the machine that's fighting them![unsolicited ad off]

[PanamaJack]

First, thanks for your time and patience...I'm not sure how you find both to do this. Forgive my persistence as well, I'm determined to bring a firearm with me when camping, and I don't want to have to hire a lawyer in mid-holiday.

OK, so point-by-point:

1) getting a hunting license may allow me to LCC in NF base on *2 from first post, but it opens up a can of worms as the minute the license comes out the F&G officer can cavity search me. Took this recommendation off a post from thehighroad http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-537794.html. Also, my apologies, but I am trying to find ways to carry loaded as I do in my home state as much as possible, and am obviously forcing the issue. I've got no practice at unloaded carry, and not a lot of time to go to the range to practice between now and our departure date.
2) appreciate the clarification
3) one out of 9 ain't bad I guess
4) here I should have been more clear - in my campsite, which is my temp. residence, I can LOC - regardless of NP or NF - and as long as I'm not w/in school zone, etc. As to discharging a firearm - never in the NPs I list in my post, and never if there is a structure or other camp w/in 150 yds, which when camping with the family is quite likely. I still would like to know if the castle doctrine applies to the campsite, and if there is any precedent - or if I need to be inside my tent and have someone "unlawfully and forcibly enter" to actually bring self-defense into play???
5) I can LOC in NP in my campsite, per *1 on first post, right? - this isn't really a flat out "no" is it?
6) I based my "check with ranger" on the thread on the Emigrants wilderness here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a.../t-193633.html where I saw a post saying firearms were prohibited in Emigrants, so figured I'd better assume the rules could be different anywhere in the state and best to check for every wilderness area.
7) OK, 1/2 right here, as what I say is a subset - LOC in campsite. I need to have an attitude adjustment on UOC, as a non-CA resident I'm having trouble getting it into my thick skull that an unloaded gun might actually be useful...if you can avoid a surprise, at least you can have access to loaded firearm. As a non-resident, I'm very leery of being in any grey area. That's why I'm trying to figure out when the castle doctrine or something similar applies, when my right to self defense outweighs CA law if ever - or better said, if there is a CA law that specifies when I can employ lethal self-defense in any situation regardless of where I happen to be standing, sitting, or reclining...by Yosemite's rules which I linked to, I could have every weapon in the book from pepper spray up to a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs, and I would have to fight the bear off with my Swiss Army knife as it ate my kid. Yes, this is hyperbole, but the park rules on the web site don't leave any room for mis-interpretation or else I'm mis-reading them.

OK, so that's about 3.5 out of 9. Not good.

Again, thanks for your help.

[MudCamper]

(1) Get a non-resident hunting license and read up on where it is legal to hunt rabbits.
(2) Travel with the Pelican Case with lock and my Gun Vault, both stored out of reach of the driver in the rear of the SUV with the mags for the pistol(s) in a zipped and secured bag in the front of the vehicle, and always keep the handguns unloaded and locked in the case or gun vault while traveling. The shotgun does not have to be locked unless I happen to drive through a K-12 school zone or I’m in a SP, but likely safer just to keep it locked up unless we’re in a NP or NF. I believe that I can keep shells in the tube of the shotgun while stored based on People v Clark, but never leave a shell in the chamber. Ditto no round in the chamber on the handgun(s) while stored.
(3) Don’t get the guns out or even talk about them in any SP, or within 1000 ft of any K-12 school. Note that in specially designated hunting areas of a SP, it may be possible, check the regs and get it in writing.
(4) In NP or NF, when in my campsite, I can LOC but can’t discharge the weapon within 150 yds of another campsite and all CA laws must be followed (i.e., make sure campsite is not w/in 1000 ft of K-12 school, etc.). Additionally, I’m nervous about assuming the castle doctrine applies since CA penal code 198.5 says the intruder “unlawfully and forcibly enters”, which I have a hard time feeling I could prove in a tent campsite unless I wait until someone comes into my family’s tent and it gets even weirder if we are using the jungle hammocks that night, and even with forced entry to tent, I might have issues if I’m within 150 yds of any residence, building, or other campsite due to weapons discharge restriction. Any thoughts or precedent here?
(5) In NP or NF and not in a wilderness area, while hiking when rabbit hunting, I can LCC. If I’m not rabbit hunting, then I can UOC if I so choose.
(6) In a wilderness area in a NF, check with ranger and get it in writing if possible.
(7) In a wilderness area in a NP, LOC in campsite as long as all CA laws are being followed.
(8) Print copies of applicable docs that MudCamper has thoughtfully linked here, as well as regs for any specially designated areas in SP.
(9) In a NP, don’t carry a gun into any public facility including a restroom, for example, in Lassen they’ve made this very clear: http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
(10) It is legal to have a pointy stick in the campsite expressly for cooking purposes within 11 feet of a non-portable cooking device such as a fire ring, otherwise, check with the local laws and ranger.

1) I would advise against it. It will open you up to all kinds of Fish and Game entanglements, more restrictions (like no lead ammo in many places) and basically surrender your 4th Amendment rights.

2) Not exactly. If your handguns are in a locked case, they can be anywhere in the vehicle. There are no restrictions on mags or ammo other than no ammo in a firearm. Loaded mags in the cases with the guns is fine.

3) Basically correct.

4) No. NF and NP are completely different. Go read the first post in this thread again.

5) No. No loaded firearms anywhere in NP except your campsite. LOC or UOC in NF. Don't use a hunting excuse as it will worsen things for you. Go back and read the first post and perhaps the 3rd.

6) UOC legal in all NF wilderness. LOC probably legal in all also.

7) No. Anywhere in NP UOC only accept campsite where LOC OK. Of course no firearms at all in federal facilities.

8) Yes but read them again.

9) Yes.

10) Pointy stick. That's a new one. Never heard of any regs on pointy sticks. But if you try and use a hunting excuse for personal defense, I'll bet you'll find out the hard way that there is one.

[PanamaJack]

Camping in N. Ca. - summary of what I think I've learned

First of all, a huge thank you to MudCamper.

My wife, 8yr old son, and I will be tent camping this fall around N.Ca in the following locations: Inyo NF, Stanislaus NF, Sierra NF, Yosemite NP, Bothe-Napa SP, Salt Point SP, Lassen Volcanic NP, Russian Gulch SP, DL Bliss SP, and probably some as-yet undetermined points in between.

I'm going to recap what I think I've learned after reading multiple threads, the CA DOJ web site, the CA state laws, etc. I'm not stopping my research, but after a weekend of doing this, I'm trying to take a break and summarize what I've learned. If I get anything wrong, please correct me!

I may bring with me one or more of the following: my Glock G-29SF (ten round mag), my HK45 (ten round mag), my Glock G-36 (six round mag), or a CA-legal Mossberg 500 which I don’t own yet (suggestions on a CA-legal gun welcome).

Here’s what I think I’ve learned as the laws apply to a non-resident with no California CWP, and I couldn't help being tongue-in-check below, so don't take all of this literally:

(1) Get a non-resident hunting license and read up on where it is legal to hunt rabbits.
(2) Travel with the Pelican Case with lock and my Gun Vault, both stored out of reach of the driver in the rear of the SUV with the mags for the pistol(s) in a zipped and secured bag in the front of the vehicle, and always keep the handguns unloaded and locked in the case or gun vault while traveling. The shotgun does not have to be locked unless I happen to drive through a K-12 school zone or I’m in a SP, but likely safer just to keep it locked up unless we’re in a NP or NF. I believe that I can keep shells in the tube of the shotgun while stored based on People v Clark, but never leave a shell in the chamber. Ditto no round in the chamber on the handgun(s) while stored.
(3) Don’t get the guns out or even talk about them in any SP, or within 1000 ft of any K-12 school. Note that in specially designated hunting areas of a SP, it may be possible, check the regs and get it in writing.
(4) In NP or NF, when in my campsite, I can LOC but can’t discharge the weapon within 150 yds of another campsite and all CA laws must be followed (i.e., make sure campsite is not w/in 1000 ft of K-12 school, etc.). Additionally, I’m nervous about assuming the castle doctrine applies since CA penal code 198.5 says the intruder “unlawfully and forcibly enters”, which I have a hard time feeling I could prove in a tent campsite unless I wait until someone comes into my family’s tent and it gets even weirder if we are using the jungle hammocks that night, and even with forced entry to tent, I might have issues if I’m within 150 yds of any residence, building, or other campsite due to weapons discharge restriction. Any thoughts or precedent here?
(5) In NP or NF and not in a wilderness area, while hiking when rabbit hunting, I can LCC. If I’m not rabbit hunting, then I can UOC if I so choose.
(6) In a wilderness area in a NF, check with ranger and get it in writing if possible.
(7) In a wilderness area in a NP, LOC in campsite as long as all CA laws are being followed.
(8) Print copies of applicable docs that MudCamper has thoughtfully linked here, as well as regs for any specially designated areas in SP.
(9) In a NP, don’t carry a gun into any public facility including a restroom, for example, in Lassen they’ve made this very clear: http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
(10) It is legal to have a pointy stick in the campsite expressly for cooking purposes within 11 feet of a non-portable cooking device such as a fire ring, otherwise, check with the local laws and ranger.

I hope I haven’t screwed up any of the above, as all of the various requirements leave my head spinning. NP are particularly frustrating, with rules like the prohibition from discharging pepper spray in Yosemite - how am I going to make pepper steak now! http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

Apologies for the long post, I’m just trying to get my head wrapped around what I can and can’t do and when and where I can and can’t do it.

Thanks again to MudCamper!

[MudCamper]

hmm Orange didnt mention anything about firearms that I saw, dont really think county/citys can make up laws.

While it may be preempted by state law, many counties and cities pass ordinances banning firearms in parks. Maybe they technically don't have the constitutional authority to do so, but they do anyway, and they will cite you if they catch you.

ETA: Just found this in the Carbon Canyon Regional Parks Rules: http://www.ocparks.com/carboncanyon/...Show=parkrules "Possession or use of firearms or weapons is prohibited." Same for Peters Canyon: http://www.ocparks.com/peterscanyon/...Show=parkrules Which park exactly are you referring to?

ETA: And found this is the OC Municipal code Title 2 Division 5 Article 2 Section 2-5-37: "No person shall have any fireworks, firearms, replica firearms, air gun, paint ball gun, BB gun, slingshot or bow or hunting arrow or any weapon in his possession or in his vehicle other than in a closed trunk, storage compartment or other area separated from the passenger section of the vehicle, in any park, beach or recreational area, nor shall any person discharge any firearm, fireworks or weapon or display any replica firearm upon or into any park, beach or recreational area; provided, however, that the Director may designate areas in which such activity is permitted. "

This is just one example for one county. If you plan on possessing firearms on lands not covered in this thread, you need to do your homework.

[luckystrike]

Well all state laws apply of course, but that's not what you have to worry about. Regional parks are regulated by the county or city which manages them, and usually forbid firearms. Try looking here for your particular location.

hmm Orange didnt mention anything about firearms that I saw, dont really think county/citys can make up laws.

[MudCamper]

ETA 5/12/11 4:45 PM: I heard back from the Deputy Chief of the Demonstration State Forests. He said he'd get back to me with specifics sometime early next week.

I heard back from the Deputy Chief and he says he hasn't forgotten me. He's waiting on his legal folks. In the mean time, I've been doing some research and have found the following:

State Forests are covered in the Public Resource Code, and of course in the CCR. I found PRC 4656 which states,

4656. This chapter does not interfere with the reasonable use of state forests for hunting, fishing, recreation and camping, except as otherwise provided by law.

And in the CCR, Title 14, Div 1.5, Chap 9, s 1413,

1413. Weapons.

(a) No person shall discharge any firearm, air or gas weapon, or bow and arrow in the vicinity of camps, residence sites, recreation grounds and areas, and over lakes or other bodies of water adjacent to or within such areas, whereby any person is exposed to injury as a result of such discharge.

(b) Without limiting the foregoing, no person shall discharge any of the above named weapons or any other weapon while within 150 yards (137.20 m) of any designated camping area.

There are also sections 1435 and 1436 which close some areas to hunting, trapping, and "use of firearms". Also section 1438 authorizes the temporary closure of "a particular activity", and section 1439 authorizes temporary closures to entry. So far it's looking like a mix of UOC/LOC is legal in these lands, with hunting an shooting allowed in many areas.

For completeness I'll include a link to the State Forests website here as a reference to look for any posted closures or restrictions.

Notice that in the Soquel State Forest web page it states that firearms are not allowed in the forest. I don't know if this is a mistake, and that they actually mean the use of firearms is not allowed, or if there is some other code that I have not found yet that gives them this broad authority.

[MudCamper]

I spoke on the phone today with a very friendly and helpful gentleman with PG&E Recreation. He informed me that PG&E has no official or published rules or regulations about firearms, and that they generally follow whatever rules are in effect in the neighboring or surrounding Federal or State lands. So, sounds pretty firearms friendly. However, he also stated that some areas may post restrictions, so look for that. Also he stated that there are campground hosts who may or may not know what the actual laws are. (Join the club! )

So keep it low key and friendly (and carry legal information with you if you're paranoid like me) and you should be fine.

I've updated the first post in the thread to read, "no official restrictions, generally the same as neighboring federal lands, state laws apply".

[MudCamper]

quick question.. what are the rules of "regional parks" the canyon across the street is called a "regional park" so is there any variation between the rules??

Well all state laws apply of course, but that's not what you have to worry about. Regional parks are regulated by the county or city which manages them, and usually forbid firearms. Try looking here for your particular location.

[luckystrike]

quick question.. what are the rules of "regional parks" the canyon across the street is called a "regional park" so is there any variation between the rules??

-thanks

[MudCamper]

Will AB 144 be affecting 12027(g) in any way?

Interesting thought. I don't know. Will have to read the latest revision of the law and see. But I don't think so, because that's concealed, and the bill is only about open carry (I think).

ETA: It looks like it will have no effect on 12027(g) (or whatever it's new reassigned number is). Interestingly, the bill also contains an exemption to itself for hunters going to/from hunting expeditions. I guess we'll all have to get hunting licenses and figure out what we can hunt anywhere at all times of year with a pistol!

[bubbagump]

Will AB 144 be affecting 12027(g) in any way?