Ares Armor Sales ( I know, I know)

[robodeer]

First:
In no way is an article "evidence" of any wrong doing!

Second:
Just out of curiosity, did you read the article?
It clearly states in the 1st sentence of the 5th paragraph of the article that the activities being discussed in the article were NOT done by Ares.

I read the article and it seems like the ATF was trying to figure out who did what, who knew what, etc. I think there was something else about Ares selling to that milling company.

Wasn't there also something about Ares being in hot water over their gigantic derp-tastic billboard? I think I get your stance about the 80%/slippery slope argument, but how much of this is about that broader subject, and how much of it is about Ares and their poor business decisions in your opinion? Do you think that Ares is as cooperative as other manufacturers, or do you think that in a few instances they tried to skirt the line a bit too much for personal gain? Or were they doing it for "the greater good", etc.

[teg33]

I read the article and it seems like the ATF was trying to figure out who did what, who knew what, etc. I think there was something else about Ares selling to that milling company.

Wasn't there also something about Ares being in hot water over their gigantic derp-tastic billboard? I think I get your stance about the 80%/slippery slope argument, but how much of this is about that broader subject, and how much of it is about Ares and their poor business decisions in your opinion? Do you think that Ares is as cooperative as other manufacturers, or do you think that in a few instances they tried to skirt the line a bit too much for personal gain? Or were they doing it for "the greater good", etc.

I doubt Ares doing it for "the greater good". Its all about Ares, they twisted the facts so they will get support from 2A community.

[venomfab]

Ares Armor Sales ( I know, I know)

Let me make one thing clear to you. Home builds were around long before Ares. There were no fight, period. Ares initialed the fight. They woke up a sleeping giant. We were perfectly happy with the way things were. No one needed them to step in and fight for us. Answer me this, what could they have possibility accomplish (besides personal gain) by letting the media in? How will that make anything better? They not only ruined the AR home builds but the AK, 1911, and etc. If it's not broken, don't fix it. They put the crosshairs on their own head and now they want our help. The people that they ****ed over. I've personally bought 5 lowers from them and I recommended them to my friends. They too bought a couple. Now we're all indirectly related to the ATF's investigation because we're in their database. So, I take it personally for what they did to me and my friends.

Once again, I don't dispute the fact that Ares opens the door to the mess they're dealing with. Never once have. What I'm saying, it that what they were doing, was perfectly LEGAL. They didn't need your permission or anyone else's to bring in the media.

Ares caught A LOT of flak for selling 80% lowers, especially after the douche went on his shooting rampage in Santa Monica with his "home built" AR. The 80% thing wasn't thrust into the limelight by Ares. It was someone who built one, and used it for evil, then politicians jumped all over it. In my opinion, I think Ares brought in the media to basically show them, that they were legally selling a "chunk of metal" and NOT a firearm, after being labeled as the local "ghost gun" dealer.

Also, even if they were the ones to wake the sleeping giant, why would it matter? What the ATF did is wrong on so many levels. Illegal search and seizure, which resulted in them gathering your info illegally. So ares does something perfectly legal, and the ATF does something illegal, which results in the ATF having your info, and you blame Ares?

Kinda like blaming the gun dealer for the mass shooting, huh?

[venomfab]

Day 5:

http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/AA-EFFINAC308?utm_source=Day+5%3A+Countdown+sale+to+ATF+deadline&utm_campaign=30JUN14-8dayATFcountdown&utm_medium=email

[lawusmc0844]

lighten up Francis

[SloChicken]

Wow some of you guys are a joke. No I don't work for them or anything but when I was stationed at Camp Pendleton I visited their store regularly. Some of the guys that worked there were in my same unit, good people. I never had these issues that some of you are *****ing about. It is no wonder why our rights are so restricted, some of you would rather say **** them for "attention whoring" instead of supporting them in this fight. Homos are the biggest attention whores, forcing everyone to accept them and that is considered okay!? But Ares doing what they did (legal) is not!?

I will continue to support them and again I am not an employee.

Well, basically. They were pretty much chumps to people around here for a very long time, selling promised product and not coming through with it.
At the very same time, they were running radio ads screaming you could buy a lowers from them with no background checks, no registration etc. (All of which is legal, but quite questionable in this political climate). But the real pisser as far as the boards go is that they screwed people here for money in the past, and now they are coming here asking for money because the ATF came down on them for some lowers that the legality is obviously questionable at best (which is why the ATF has them currently).
Ares had do either be ignorant to the strict interpretation of the law in regard to their lowers, or just be obstinate and thumbing their nose at the ATF with regard to their practices and products. Neither of which is responsible to their business, or their customers.
If you want to get a feel for how Ares acted in the past and why the sentiment is what it is here on these boards, look no further than the Better Business Bureau's ratings and reviews. Heck, you could look most anywhere really, but here is a link to the BBB (Who follows up and vettes the/all complaints http://www.bbb.org/san-diego/Busines...960/complaints
Not only are there tons of complaints, but seemingly Ares just gave up on resolving them as there are many many in the unresolved section on the linked page.
When they did reply, often they were rude and abrasive. Consistent in performance, consistently the same level of class.

[venomfab]

Well, basically. They were pretty much chumps to people around here for a very long time, selling promised product and not coming through with it.

At the very same time, they were running radio ads screaming you could buy a lowers from them with no background checks, no registration etc. (All of which is legal, but quite questionable in this political climate). But the real pisser as far as the boards go is that they screwed people here for money in the past, and now they are coming here asking for money because the ATF came down on them for some lowers that the legality is obviously questionable at best (which is why the ATF has them currently).

Ares had do either be ignorant to the strict interpretation of the law in regard to their lowers, or just be obstinate and thumbing their nose at the ATF with regard to their practices and products. Neither of which is responsible to their business, or their customers.

If you want to get a feel for how Ares acted in the past and why the sentiment is what it is here on these boards, look no further than the Better Business Bureau's ratings and reviews. Heck, you could look most anywhere really, but here is a link to the BBB (Who follows up and vettes the/all complaints http://www.bbb.org/san-diego/Busines...960/complaints

Not only are there tons of complaints, but seemingly Ares just gave up on resolving them as there are many many in the unresolved section on the linked page.

When they did reply, often they were rude and abrasive. Consistent in performance, consistently the same level of class.

I understand the frustration felt by many when it comes to their business practices of the past. Ares has dealt with fulfillment issues in the past, and the way they handled the situation has left a lot of people pissed. And rightfully so. However, this is different. This isn't about Ares.

This is about YOU, ME, and tens of thousands of gun owners in this state. This is about your basic constitutional rights. If the ATF walks away with this victory, then what's to stop them from further attacking the rest of your rights?

[SloChicken]

I understand the frustration felt by many when it comes to their business practices of the past. Ares has dealt with fulfillment issues in the past, and the way they handled the situation has left a lot of people pissed. And rightfully so. However, this is different. This isn't about Ares.

This is about YOU, ME, and tens of thousands of gun owners in this state. This is about your basic constitutional rights. If the ATF walks away with this victory, then what's to stop them from further attacking the rest of your rights?

I am not so sure,

Yes, they are after Ares for their polymer 80% lowers.
To my understanding,
It is alleged that these lowers are illegally constructed, per existing guidelines (at least that is the ATF argument).
Ares had conversations with the ATF prior to the warrant being served, they had a choice to make, and they chose to keep making and housing these products in the location that was raided.
It is the ATFs contention that these lowers are illegal, and those that purchased them from Ares are now involved, and quite possibly open to facing charges due to their illegal purchase.
It is sensible, per the ATF stance that they took not only the "illegal" lowers, but also the database that would inform the ATF of the persons that have purchased these illegal lowers.

All of this makes sense. I don't believe our gun laws are just, and I don't really see the problem with the polymer lowers from a personal stance.
That doesn't change the law.

Ares made these, they should have been very clear about the risk in making these, or concluded with good verifiable evidence that, in fact these lowers are legal.

To this point Ares has not made their case, other than grandstanding and calling the ATF names (see the bottom of their page regarding this).

I am not a fan of the ATF any more than anyone else here, but I know that it is just good sense not to grab the lion by the tail. There are other ways to take the lion down.
Ares seemingly doesn't understand that part.
Seems this time they didn't grab the lion by the tail, but rather they grabbed it by its John Thomas ...

And they dragged their customers into it by their actions.

That isn't even bringing into the light their earlier referenced "Customer Service" history.

I am all about fighting the good fight for our 2A rights. I just don't want Ares doing it on my behalf.
If they fall due to their actions, I feel it will have little effect on upcoming legislation. They have shown themselves as irresponsible in the eyes of many. And if they fall, they did it to themselves.

Here is a good idea, be a good citizen, don't break existing laws, lobby for change while complying with existing laws you disagree with. And change them with persistence - within the law.
See: McDonald vs. Chicago for reference on how it is done
Peruta vs. County of San Diego, for another.

Ares vs. their customer base and the ATF is not at all the same thing.

[turbos17]

Day 5:
http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/AA-E...m_medium=email

+1

[venomfab]

I am not so sure,



Yes, they are after Ares for their polymer 80% lowers.

To my understanding,

It is alleged that these lowers are illegally constructed, per existing guidelines (at least that is the ATF argument).

Ares had conversations with the ATF prior to the warrant being served, they had a choice to make, and they chose to keep making and housing these products in the location that was raided.

It is the ATFs contention that these lowers are illegal, and those that purchased them from Ares are now involved, and quite possibly open to facing charges due to their illegal purchase.

It is sensible, per the ATF stance that they took not only the "illegal" lowers, but also the database that would inform the ATF of the persons that have purchased these illegal lowers.



All of this makes sense. I don't believe our gun laws are just, and I don't really see the problem with the polymer lowers from a personal stance.

That doesn't change the law.



Ares made these, they should have been very clear about the risk in making these, or concluded with good verifiable evidence that, in fact these lowers are legal.



To this point Ares has not made their case, other than grandstanding and calling the ATF names (see the bottom of their page regarding this).



I am not a fan of the ATF any more than anyone else here, but I know that it is just good sense not to grab the lion by the tail. There are other ways to take the lion down.

Ares seemingly doesn't understand that part.

Seems this time they didn't grab the lion by the tail, but rather they grabbed it by its John Thomas ...



And they dragged their customers into it by their actions.



That isn't even bringing into the light their earlier referenced "Customer Service" history.



I am all about fighting the good fight for our 2A rights. I just don't want Ares doing it on my behalf.

If they fall due to their actions, I feel it will have little effect on upcoming legislation. They have shown themselves as irresponsible in the eyes of many. And if they fall, they did it to themselves.



Here is a good idea, be a good citizen, don't break existing laws, lobby for change while complying with existing laws you disagree with. And change them with persistence - within the law.

See: McDonald vs. Chicago for reference on how it is done

Peruta vs. County of San Diego, for another.



Ares vs. their customer base and the ATF is not at all the same thing.

Once again, I'll have to respectfully disagree. I can't comment in the legality of the polymer lowers, or the conversations between Ares ad the ATF. None of that matters, anyhow.
If they lose this fight, it's bad news for EVERYONE.

[robodeer]

Man... That comp is fugly.

[SloChicken]

Once again, I'll have to respectfully disagree. I can't comment in the legality of the polymer lowers, or the conversations between Ares ad the ATF. None of that matters, anyhow.
If they lose this fight, it's bad news for EVERYONE.

Actually, I don't think so. Not for everyone anyway.

The argument the ATF is bringing is that the Polymer lowers are not 80% lowers. The ATF contends these lowers actually were completed and then filled. In general terms, this constitutes manufacturing a firearm.
Apparently this is why Ares is finding themselves in trouble.
Ares was aware of the ATF interpretation, yet continued making these lowers.
similarly,
Ares was aware they did not have forged lowers, yet they kept taking peoples money.
And then refused refunds, accused customers, and other less than honorable actions that really show who they are.

I don't think if they lose their case it will stop home builds, but it may further define what a home build is, and what it is not.

The political upheaval was enhanced due to Ares (and EPs) actions. (thanks for that ...)
Ares and EP knew the lowers were not approved, and apparently both companies were aware they were on shaky ground by continuing to make them.
Heck, Ares even had a mill in the back of their shop in Oceanside for a while. I saw it myself as I went in there to watch my employees try in vain for months to get their purchased but not received lowers.

You have got to ask yourself, how is it that all of the other 80% companies are not getting raided?

EP and Ares' interpretation of the law apparently does not agree with ATFs interpretation. And there is the rub.

I think within that, and looking toward Ares' examples of their character, you will find your answer to why Ares is in the position they are in.
This is less an attack on some law abiding citizen by "Jack-booted thugs" as Ares likes to characterize them. And more a bunch of unscrupulous guys trying to get one over on The Man, much like they did to many of their customers.
This time I think they tugged on the wrong tiger's tail.

[CaliforniaSerf]

You know the one thing that gives the left one leg up on us?

They totally ignore wrongs their side does. They realize the cause is what's important. Not petty bickering.

When our side wakes the F up and realizes we should do the same, we may actually move our agenda forward.

Nope. We care about getting our panties in a wad. So, what does the left and the media do? Obliges us. They spin what our side says, we in turn get mad at our team.

Smart guys. Way to go.

[venomfab]

Actually, I don't think so. Not for everyone anyway.



The argument the ATF is bringing is that the Polymer lowers are not 80% lowers. The ATF contends these lowers actually were completed and then filled. In general terms, this constitutes manufacturing a firearm.

Apparently this is why Ares is finding themselves in trouble.

Ares was aware of the ATF interpretation, yet continued making these lowers.

similarly,

Ares was aware they did not have forged lowers, yet they kept taking peoples money.

And then refused refunds, accused customers, and other less than honorable actions that really show who they are.



I don't think if they lose their case it will stop home builds, but it may further define what a home build is, and what it is not.



The political upheaval was enhanced due to Ares (and EPs) actions. (thanks for that ...)

Ares and EP knew the lowers were not approved, and apparently both companies were aware they were on shaky ground by continuing to make them.

Heck, Ares even had a mill in the back of their shop in Oceanside for a while. I saw it myself as I went in there to watch my employees try in vain for months to get their purchased but not received lowers.



You have got to ask yourself, how is it that all of the other 80% companies are not getting raided?



EP and Ares' interpretation of the law apparently does not agree with ATFs interpretation. And there is the rub.



I think within that, and looking toward Ares' examples of their character, you will find your answer to why Ares is in the position they are in.

This is less an attack on some law abiding citizen by "Jack-booted thugs" as Ares likes to characterize them. And more a bunch of unscrupulous guys trying to get one over on The Man, much like they did to many of their customers.

This time I think they tugged on the wrong tiger's tail.

I can understand their stance on the lowers, if it is like you say it is. The customer still has to take the same steps to complete the lower for it to be functional. If I take a completed forged or billet lower, and weld
the holes, would it be an 80%'er at that point? I say "yes."

The reason I say it's bad for everyone, isn't because I believe that "home builds" will stop (although I wouldn't put it past them). I believe the information of all the customers that was gathered, will be used for confiscation or legal action against those customers. They will use that info to target gun owners, and seize the so-called "illegal gun." And what do you want to bet, that people who were never even customers of Ares will pop up on that list?

Like I said, the fight isn't to help Ares, but rather your fellow gun owners.

[SloChicken]

I can understand their stance on the lowers, if it is like you say it is. The customer still has to take the same steps to complete the lower for it to be functional. If I take a completed forged or billet lower, and weld
the holes, would it be an 80%'er at that point? I say "yes."

The reason I say it's bad for everyone, isn't because I believe that "home builds" will stop (although I wouldn't put it past them). I believe the information of all the customers that was gathered, will be used for confiscation or legal action against those customers. They will use that info to target gun owners, and seize the so-called "illegal gun." And what do you want to bet, that people who were never even customers of Ares will pop up on that list?

Like I said, the fight isn't to help Ares, but rather your fellow gun owners.

According to EPs statement,

The ATF has informed EP that the ATF is reviewing the customer lists for persons disallowed from owning firearms that have chosen this route to acquire them.
Others will not be at risk for proscecution (persecution???).

So, Joe Public has little to fear over this one. The guys that shouldn't have firearms may be targeted by the ATF though.
See here:

http://www.eparmory.com/Current-News-s/1845.htm

Even still, the rift is that ATF believes that the extent that EP and Ares made their 80% lowers did not comply with existing legislation on this matter.

Ares could have consulted their lawyers prior to all this coming about, or taken the many warnings they were given - yet they continued on.

And now they reap what they have sown ...