Practical differences between berger bullets

[Whiterabbit]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1076763024/berger-target-bullets-243-caliber-6mm-243-diameter-108-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1076180097/berger-hybrid-target-bullets-243-caliber-6mm-243-diameter-105-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

Hybrid vs HPBT.

Of course, The physical difference is well documented on the berger website.

What's the practical difference when loaded up and shot?

The price is the same
The weight is essentially the same.
Both are tangent at the groove.

So.... why make the 108?

[milotrain]

I can't speak for the 6mm but I have heard a fair bit about the 80.5 vs 82 berger 224 bullet.

1. They make a bunch of different things and send them out for testing, then they get feedback and only make the things people want.
2. In the case of the 80.5 and the 82 people liked both. The fullbore guys had to have the 80.5s and the service rifle guys liked the 82s better.

You will likely find that one is more reliable or easier to get to shoot well for you, that won't be true in ever rifle though so sometimes it's one and sometime it's the other.

[kcstott]

Looks like the 108 has more bearing surface then the 105..

[Fjold]

Some people claim that the Hybrids are more forgiving of jumping to the lands and the VLDs are more accurate when seated to the lands.

I read that on the internet so who knows if it's true.

[kcstott]

Well My Berger 175's VLD's loaded on 47.5 grains of 2000MR and seated to .308 cartridge specs of 2.810" and this is about a mile off the lands of a Rem Milspec 5R barrel they print nice one hole five shot groups.

I'll be testing my Lapua brass loads this weekend and try my TMK's in my Mk11

[bsumoba]

Looks like the 108 has more bearing surface then the 105..

Yes they do. You will need a longer throat to accommodate the 108s vs the 105 hybrids.

Some people claim that the Hybrids are more forgiving of jumping to the lands and the VLDs are more accurate when seated to the lands.

I read that on the internet so who knows if it's true.

This is generally accepted. I too, jam my VLDs and jump the hybrids. I jump the 108 boat tails as well.

[Whiterabbit]

Neither of the above are VLD. I made sure to address that by saying they were tangent ogive at the bore interface. (since one is hybrid and the other is tangent the whole way)

[Whiterabbit]

Looks like the 108 has more bearing surface then the 105..

Yes they do. You will need a longer throat to accommodate the 108s vs the 105 hybrids.

Makes perfect sense to me, from a chamber-fit (as in, will physically chamber) perspective.

BUT, Does this only change the downrange results by only changing jump to the lands?

As in, if I have an OAL limitation, and a rifle with a long throat, the bullet with the shortest ogive-to-nose length (the 107) will give me the maximum seat-depth adjustability with respect to tuning jump to the lands when developing a load?

Furthermore, if I have a short throat, or do not need the adjustability in seat depth, or have no OAL limitation, then the bullet with the longer ogive-to-nose length (105, potential BC advantage with partial secant ogive) may yield better results? (simply by allowing for optimizing seat depth while adding a possible BC advantage via nose profile)

That's how I am reading this.

[bsumoba]

BUT, Does this only change the downrange results by only changing jump to the lands?

IMO, distance to the lands or in the lands (jump or jam) is just a means for us precision reloaders to use as a reference. It is simply a number. Yes, guys have had better luck jamming VLDs and jumping hybrids or HPBT bullets, but that is a general consensus and many have jumped VLDs and jammed hybrids or SMKs. It is all in what the rifle wants.

Some of us, myself included will jump most of our match loads because there are cases where I have to or want to, eject a loaded round and I want no chance of sticking the bullet in the lands.


As in, if I have an OAL limitation, and a rifle with a long throat, the bullet with the shortest ogive-to-nose length (the 107) will give me the maximum seat-depth adjustability with respect to tuning jump to the lands when developing a load?

This is why factory chambers are tough when you are looking to get maximum accuracy and/or velocity out of your rifle. It is especially limiting when trying to shoot the heavier, higher BC bullets in rifles with magazine length limitations. This is why you will see mostly single shot, custom chamber rifles in benchrest and F-Class and precision tactical guys will use mags that give them the maximum OAL and chamber reamers that allow them to shoot a specific bullet.

To answer your question...not necessarily. If it were me and I was magazine length limited, then I would load to maximum magazine length, then use the powder charge and see if you can find a good, stable accuracy node that spans over a certain amount of powder, say 0.3-0.5 gr range for most small/medium cartridges. If I find something close, then I would see if seating the bullet further in (maybe in 5-10K increments) would yield better groups.

Furthermore, if I have a short throat, or do not need the adjustability in seat depth, or have no OAL limitation, then the bullet with the longer ogive-to-nose length (105, potential BC advantage with partial secant ogive) may yield better results? (simply by allowing for optimizing seat depth while adding a possible BC advantage via nose profile)

Your questions are tough because I think there is no right answer and will vary from rifle to rifle. What I can tell you is that people in benchrest, f-class, and precision tactical shooters will choose a bullet they want to shoot, say the 105 hybrid, 140gr hybrid or 180gr hybrid and will have a gunsmith with a reamer designed for that bullet to optimize the throat/freebmore length so they can get maximum accuracy and/or velocity.

The reason for the hybrid is it typically has the higher BC versus a HPBT or VLD. Well...now the VLD with the new BC numbers from Berger are actually equal if not better in some cases to the hybrids. The reason for the 108BT is that some would argue that the tangent ogive bullets are "more forgiving". In my opinion, we precision shooters have all tried them, we probably got most if not all of the bullets to shoot well (and if we did not, we tend to avoid them alltogether going forward) and we ultimately decided to just stick with a particular manufacture or bullet. In many cases, we change because of availability or another new bullet comes out claiming better BC, or its reputation is starting to prove that it is a superior shooting bullet (or that particular lot # is ) .

[kcstott]

I've had good luck jumping my VLD's both SMK's and Berger VLD'd

I treat them identically in my loads and they function nearly identically.
The bergers will print a nice one hole five shot group, the SMK's will do the same or slightly wider grouping, But I can't say thats the bullet or load. I'm not that good on the trigger yet. and that's prone off a bipod with rear bag F class TR rules. I don't sort bullets either.

Some guys get out the comparators and start sorting bullets. No thanks. I'm not bench rest, nor am i shooting professionally in competition not to mention I don't have the time for that crap. I'm happy with .5-.75 moa groups.
Maybe when i get around to building a new rifle for F Class open sure. I'm kicking around the idea of the 284 Shehane. that round has shown great potetial. and I'm just a fan of the 7mm so there is some bias.

[bsumoba]

Maybe when i get around to building a new rifle for F Class open sure. I'm kicking around the idea of the 284 Shehane. that round has shown great potetial. and I'm just a fan of the 7mm so there is some bias.

Good choice

[LynnJr]

Get yourself a box of Berger 105 BT bullets. They are easier to load and shoot better if your not willing to sort and load to 0.001