Long range shooting with a spotting scope

[bsumoba]

Just wanted to share my setup. I'm talking about shooting both competition (f-class) and maybe even long range (800+ yards).

My spotting scope set up consists of the Ray Vin tripod stand and outrigger system, which helps get the spotting scope further out from the base to clear the legs a little better, a Creedmoor Sports scope head. I am using a big, heavy Celestron 30x fixed ELR (eye relief lens) that has a very good depth of view. it is a little too big, but it was a good price. At 1000 yards, I can see about 4 targets to the left and right of my target. I set the focus so I can see the mirage coming off the 600 yard berm, or half way from me and the target.

Setting up this way, I can shoot the rifle and just shift my head to look through the spotting scope. I can get back on the gun right away with minimal body movement and get a round down target as quickly as I can in the condition I want to shoot it in. Then, after the shot, I can move off the gun without breaking my body position very much and onto the spotting scope quickly to confirm what the mirage was doing right away so I can relate where I held my aim on that shot to the spotter disk (the white disk on the target) to the mirage and then the flags. Wind flags and mirage are about the only thing you can see or rely on when reading wind and the spotting scope is crucial. As you can see in the pic below, when when the scope maginifcation is in the 40x+ range, it is hard to see mirage closer and you can only see mirage at or around the target. You have 1000 yard between you and the target and it would not be a good idea to ignore the mirage half way down the target.

I can see this set up being used for the ELR guys or the guys in BLM that have no wind flags and rely on mainly mirage and kestrel to read wind. The F-class guys and highpower guys have been doing this forever, but the tactical guys or long range shooters might want to consider something like this. It has helped me quite a bit in my wind reading.





This is a 15-55x power NF Competition scope. I am not 100% sure what this magnification is at, but it is probably 40x+. The X ring (5 inches) cannot be seen and only the 10 ring due to the heavy mirage. The blinder thing you can see attached to the scope is because I am left eye dominant and it helps with eye fatigue from squinting to shoot. I considered shooting left handed, but I still prefer to shoot right handed.

[ar15barrels]

I set the focus so I can see the mirage coming off the 600 yard berm, or half way from me and the target.

I bet that a LOT of people think that the spotting scope is only for looking at the target and they are completely missing the mirage reading aspect of it's use.
The value of the scope is leaving it set to see the mirage at a DIFFERENT distance than the mirage you see in the rifle scope.

[LynnJr]

You need a SureFeed.

[JMP]

I can see this set up being used for the ELR guys or the guys in BLM that have no wind flags and rely on mainly mirage and kestrel to read wind. The F-class guys and highpower guys have been doing this forever, but the tactical guys or long range shooters might want to consider something like this. It has helped me quite a bit in my wind reading.

I think that spotting scopes already in wide use for just about all shooters. However, that particular set looks like it might work well for someone getting started on a budget. A good tripod itself is a fairly steep investment. Most people simply use standard tripods, but they have very strong, made to handle all terrain, and have complete flexibility.

The main obstacles for an ELR spotting rig is price as folks do not want to skimp and get a spotter that cannot really get out there. The nice spotting scopes that have a first focal plane reticle so that a spotter can call a more precise correction at unknown ranges end up being pretty pricey (very pricey). Then, on BLM you have your range finder. Since you are setting up your own targets a rangefinder is the only way to get precise measurements. The problem with rangefinders is that the civilian models don't hack it for long range and you basically have no choice but to get a Vectronix unit or you will eventually run out of range. In BLM or general shooting, you cannot hit the target if you do not know the distance unless you plan on walking it in. The trouble with that is that ELR cartridges and barrels are very expensive.

If you stick with stationary objects at known distances that aren't too far, it will save you a ton of money. What is helpful is to shoot with other people, where, collectively the groups has all the requisite gear.

[micro911]

I use Kowa TSN-821 with 27X LER. It allows me to see a 30 caliber bullet hole at 300 yards, at least. I think Kowa is the best scope for the money.

[Citizen_B]

Since you are setting up your own targets a rangefinder is the only way to get precise measurements.

Does anyone use GPS? I don't long range shoot but it'll give you reasonable accuracy (at least in the ballpark) with a quick field calculation. The commercial units today are accurate to around 15m, so about 30m error total on the high side.

[Sir Toast]

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[x3]
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[Twystd1]

What just happened?

-T

[ar15barrels]

Does anyone use GPS? I don't long range shoot but it'll give you reasonable accuracy (at least in the ballpark) with a quick field calculation. The commercial units today are accurate to around 15m, so about 30m error total on the high side.

At long range, 15m of error would be a problem.
Might as well just lob them in there and adjust until you are hitting and then backwards calculate the distance from the hard dope...

[milotrain]

I use Kowa TSN-821 with 27X LER. It allows me to see a 30 caliber bullet hole at 300 yards, at least. I think Kowa is the best scope for the money.

Not disagreeing with you but i have the same scope with the same eyepiece and I can see bullet holes at 200 if I'm lucky, and almost never at 300. I am working on an adapter for astronomical eyepieces so I can get a 100x eyepiece for the few times when I don't care about mirage and I just want to see bullet holes far out. Eye relief will suck though.

[JMP]

Does anyone use GPS? I don't long range shoot but it'll give you reasonable accuracy (at least in the ballpark) with a quick field calculation. The commercial units today are accurate to around 15m, so about 30m error total on the high side.

Some people do as I believe there is some sort of application for smart phones. I believe that you need reception for these to work, and they aren't going to be absolutely reliable.

It really depends on how much of a necessity it is. For people that do not have a proper range finder, they may use methods as crude as using the odometer in the car (if there is a straight path).

Then, it depends on what you consider long distance. For $800, there are some units that will be pretty reliable to 1,000 yards, but then they get a little spotty after that unless you have a very large reflective target to bounce off. Then, holding the rangefinder perfectly steady is important to get the right readings. The better the rangefinder, the quicker they'll take readings and will do so of of soft targets. That's the problem with the cheap rangefinders as the beam is so big that it becomes are to isolate a small target.

[Citizen_B]

You can use a regular hiking (or other) type GPS. They don't need cell reception and work everywhere. You set it to use Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates to make the math easy, as the coordinate is given in East/North meters. Suppose your target is at:

11S 319671.00m E
3946234.00m N

and your Firing Position is:

11S 317481.00m E
3945151.00m N

You subtract the target coordinate from the FP coordinate E/N values to give you:

2190m E (if it was negative then your target is West of FP).
1083m N (if it was negative then your target is South of FP).

Then do the trig for a right angle triangle to solve for distance, in this example it's 2443m. As this will be point to point assuming (nearly) flat earth, you can apply the same method using altitude values to give you LOS distance. You can derive the target angle this way as well if you need it for calcs. 15m of GPS location error for a 2000m ranging is 0.75% error. I've done ranging like this for different applications and it's fairly quick to do in field with a calculator.

Diagram attached.

[JMP]

Citizen B, I am sure there are devices that will get you close enough with a simple GPS system as long as you are okay with the results that will have an acceptable margin of error. However, in your example, you do not really need to solve or "x" as you will generally make elevation adjustments based on the horizontal travel. This is the reason that folks that do not have an incline calculator with their gear may use a cosine indicator to get the horizontal travel.

Why the horizontal travel is important, here is an extreme example. Let's say you were shooting from the top of a 1 mile high building at a target that is straight down below you (your aim is orthogonal to the earth's surface). You would not adjust for any elevation even though you are shooting 1 mile. You would only adjust or the horizontal component, which would just be your bore height.

The best way to get distances is if you have a buddy that owns a Vectronix unit. Since you are frequently shooting in the same location, you only have to measure once. A Vectronix rangefinder (even on the low end) should allow precise measurements to the 1ft for about 5km if you stretch it. Of course, you don't really need more than a "cheap" Vectronix unit since even the Terrapin will most likely get your results as far as you can possibly shoot.

The civilian rangefinders are more for hunting as they will give good readings or several hundred to 1,000 yards. For ELR shooting, the only way it is going to be accurate is with a Vectronix rangefinder.

Since most people do not shoot that far, my recommendation in a budget rangefinder is the Leica1600B as it only costs $799 and it will be more than enough or most shooters.

If you shoot in the field, I go as follows, 1) good riflescope (big expense) 2) Kestrel 4500NV (great value in shooting for only $700) 3) a good spotting scope (this is a large investment for a good one), then get the rangefinder for ELR distances as they are quite pricey (>$3,000). Unless you are always shooting different ranges in different locations, it is hard to justify the expense of a good rangefinder. Then, of course, you will need a good tripod because if you use a Walmart tripod, you will find that it doesn't cut it for a nice spotting unit with a rangefinder. You'll want a lot of strength and adjustability.

Most of the long range guys will have a Vectronix unit (perhaps shared among a group). Actually, if it is something you want, there are some still available as Vectronix exited the civilian supply chain in 2014 so the rangefinders will be hard to obtain. After that, you are probably best with a Newcon.

Personally, I am more of an analogue guy as I want my gear to function well in all environments and not depend on things like a telephone application. I do not care about the new stuff with the BlueTooth and other fancy frills. I am not a good keeper of records and notes so I just find what works and stick with it.

[Citizen_B]

However, in your example, you do not really need to solve or "x" as you will generally make elevation adjustments based on the horizontal travel. This is the reason that folks that do not have an incline calculator with their gear may use a cosine indicator to get the horizontal travel.

Actually "x" in the diagram is not using elevation/altitude, it's the East/North distance in meters, as that's what the GPS coordinates are given in. The result x, is the straight line distance (horizontal travel) from FP to target ignoring elevation/altitude.

In any case, I've used it to range distant points in other applications with decent accuracy and wasn't sure if anyone did the same for LR shooting - I'm surmising it's not.

[JMP]

Actually "x" in the diagram is not using elevation/altitude, it's the East/North distance in meters, as that's what the GPS coordinates are given in. The result x, is the straight line distance (horizontal travel) from FP to target ignoring elevation/altitude.

Okay, I got it. Then that's what you want. It it provides sufficient margin of error, it's probably a reasonable alternative that would save you money. The only downside seems to be that you need to get the coordinates at both your target and your shooting location.

Is there a way to program it so you can get a quick distance calculation without using the Pythagorean theorem each time.

If you are shooting a very long way, it may be a good way to go as the rangefinders suited for ELR shooting are very expensive. However, at extreme ranges, it is not entirely necessary to have the perfect measurement. The reason for this is that your shots move around enough where your ballistic calculator will never provide a reliable reading as it cannot compensate for all the variables over long distances. Generally, folks are going to need a sighter shot or walk the bullet in to get on target if it a very long shot.