A new mousetrap?

[sweetmadness]

I get an idea in my head, and if I can't solve it with a plausible answer, it bugs me. So, here's my (hair brained) idea- and electrically driven firing pin. no sears, no electrical primers, no aa batteries. Call this a thought experiment.

First off, I hated Remington's superhigh speed electronic bolt action. I'm not looking for that. I want to try something I haven't seen before.

Ok, so I was doing some research on line, and came across an idea somewhere in the dark recesses of the internet. A solenoid or electromagnet activated firing pin.

I just want to see if this could be done within certain parameters. Don't use the fire control group. On-board recharging, and robust. Failing fewer than 1 in 5k rounds.

Found out that i need about 0.015 n/m to activate the primer on a round.

Can that be done? More importantly, can it be done in the space of the cutout in the rear of an ar15 bolt carrier group? Since it would not need a hammer to hit the pin, as a solenoid or electromagnet would be doing that, the fcg and it's pocket becomes wasted space. Would that mean the upper is now the firearm?

Could it be run by a capacitor to keep the voltage/charging needs at a low constant instead of needing everything to be beefier?

Lastly, i had the idea of using on-board energy sources to power it. 1. from the shake lights, the charging mechanism in the buffer, and 2. the cells that little 15 year old girl used to power her flashlight from the heat of a hand, but placed on a barrel.

I tried to build the circuit on a circuit simulator, but they didn't go as simple as i needed. I haven't used any electrical knowledge since 7th grade, and I've lost it all. I know firing can be done with the solenoid, but can it also be done with a electromagnet?

shake light, so you can see what i mean for that,

http://www.amazon.com/Forever-Light-Shake-Flashlight/dp/B000BPJ262/ref=sr_1_1/181-4291761-9193904?ie=UTF8&qid=1413017966&sr=8-1&keywords=shake+led+flashlight

this for the charging from barrel heat

http://mashable.com/2013/07/01/flashlight-powered-hands-heat/

[kcstott]

One: Solenoids don't need a capacitor to charge a coil. Solenoids just need a good high voltage source.

Two: You are going to have to come up with something to act as a safety, A FAIL SAFE SAFETY.

Three: Circuit simulator?? What the hell ever happened to drawing it up then digging through all your spar parts and laying it out on a bread board and hook it up to your regulated power supply??

Four: A solenoid is an electromagnet.

Five:

You may want to rethink even attempting this as bypassing the FCG and using electronics to fire the weapon could get you in a lot of hot water.

See it would not take much once you got your solenoid installed to wire in a extra circuit that could pulse the solenoid creating full auto.

And that you do not want to screw with. Which is why Remington used a bolt action rifle for their electronic rounds.
and don't just remove the gas system either as that would still be to easy to convert.

Nope sorry it's a sound idea just that it steps right up to the edge of legality and tests the water.

[krwada]

High speed solenoid driver

I haven't used any electrical knowledge since 7th grade, and I've lost it all.

First of all ... since 7th grade?

I would stay away from a project like this.

Maybe you can salvage a solenoid from your local surplus electronics shop and rig up some hardened bolts and try and make some dents into some brass sheet metal.

Only then, can you see what you will be up against.

A high speed solenoid driver is not a trivial project. This is what you will need to do in order to get the same metal deformation effect that the regular mechanical firing pin gets...

Most firing pins, (bolt rifle) typically use a 20-25 lb striker spring. Generating this amount of force with a solenoid, (in milleseconds time frame), is not easy to do.

As to a safety ... The 1st step is to make a safety that ensures there is NO possibility of electric current flowing through the coils when the safety is engaged. I would then try and figure out how to make a mechanical backup. Only then ... would I consider such a contraption "safe to use"

I know firing can be done with the solenoid, but can it also be done with a electromagnet?

ummm... You really ought not to do anything like this ... really!

[kcstott]

I saw the 7th grade thing too an just skimmed over it as a waste of energy to comment

[krwada]

uh ... yeah ... kinda like that dude who wanted to make a bolt using mild steel ... all the while clearly demonstrating that he has never had any real metal working experience... I mean ... this is something else!

[kcstott]

uh ... yeah ... kinda like that dude who wanted to make a bolt using mild steel ... all the while clearly demonstrating that he has never had any real metal working experience... I mean ... this is something else!

Exactly. Ya know people come up with some good ideas but want to put them in play with very poor practices. Sounds like an engineer

[ar15barrels]

You are not going to be able to make the necessary impact energy from charging capacitors with your motion and heat harvesting ideas.
It's going to take a pretty beefy custom made solenoid to do it within the space of an AR bolt carrier.
You are going to need some batteries to handle the current requirements.
6 123 batteries in the buttstock should do it.
That's 18v that you can pull about an amp from which gives you 18w of power to work with.
You can put contacts in the lower just forward of the buffer tube to transfer power into the carrier.
That way, it's only possible to energize the solenoid when the carrier is fully closed.
Your circuit will have to read the impedence of the solenoid to verify full lockup before it tries to energize the solenoid as the carrier will be shorting the contacts if the carrier is out of battery.
Figure on the firing pin needing a decently strong return spring due to the weight of the solenoid trying to fire the primer when the carrier locks up.
Figure on fully potting the solenoid into the carrier to resist the g forces of the carrier motion.

[Fjold]

Anschutz made an electronic trigger for match 22 rimfires years ago.

[krwada]

Anschutz Electronic trigger

Anschutz made an electronic trigger for match 22 rimfires years ago.

How well did it work?

I have not heard of this until you mentioned it.

[kcstott]

How well did it work?

I have not heard of this until you mentioned it.

google's not turning up much either but there is a lot of chatter on the 22 match boards

['ol shooter]

Smoke a couple doobs, and it will all fall into place. Only trouble is, when you come down, you won't be able to remember what the epiphany was.

[javaduke]

I had almost exactly the same idea a while ago (minus the capacitor charging from the barrel heat) and I've been researching electronic triggers for a while. There are several high-end companies making handguns with electronic triggers (Pardini, Morini, Hammerli, Anschutz, MG, etc). Here's what I know.
First of all, most compact solenoids simply do not have enough energy to reliably ignite the primer. Also, their shafts are made from a softer material and are not very suitable for a firing pin. So they simply release the sear or striker, instead of hitting the primer directly. Even that kind of design had a limited success. Pardini had an electronic trigger version of their 32-caliber centerfire gun, but they have discontinued it and the current Pardini HP model has a mechanical trigger (a fantastic one though!). As of today, most companies have discontinued their electronic semi-auto rimfires too, so the only guns that come with electronic triggers are single-shot Olympic free pistols (e.g. Morini CM84E) and air pistols (e.g. Morini CM162EI). That being said, some shooters still prefer mechanical triggers, so electronic triggers really have very little, if any, advantage.

[billrd]

I had almost exactly the same idea a while ago (minus the capacitor charging from the barrel heat) and I've been researching electronic triggers for a while. There are several high-end companies making handguns with electronic triggers (Pardini, Morini, Hammerli, Anschutz, MG, etc). Here's what I know.
First of all, most compact solenoids simply do not have enough energy to reliably ignite the primer. Also, their shafts are made from a softer material and are not very suitable for a firing pin. So they simply release the sear or striker, instead of hitting the primer directly. Even that kind of design had a limited success. Pardini had an electronic trigger version of their 32-caliber centerfire gun, but they have discontinued it and the current Pardini HP model has a mechanical trigger (a fantastic one though!). As of today, most companies have discontinued their electronic semi-auto rimfires too, so the only guns that come with electronic triggers are single-shot Olympic free pistols (e.g. Morini CM84E) and air pistols (e.g. Morini CM162EI). That being said, some shooters still prefer mechanical triggers, so electronic triggers really have very little, if any, advantage.

Don't know about new Tasers but all my old ones just used a primer in the cartridge and a regular 9 volt battery. Never looked into he electronics so don't know if voltage was stepped up or what. All I know was there was no mechanical firing pin.

[valley82]

if you are going that far, redesign the FCG...negative to the barrel and positive to the firing electrode (pin). When you pull the trigger have it close a switch completing the circuit through the firing electrode (pin) which could be held against the primer with a spring pushing the firing electrode (pin) foreward. You would have to isolate the firing electrode (pin) from the bolt with Teflon bushings or the like but since it does not have to hold up to the hammer strike it could be much thinner in diameter, put enough voltage through the primer and it will go off.

[valley82]

OK to add to the brain damage...replace safety selector lever with a poly (non electro conductive material) and add a straight through peice of copper so that when turned to the "fire" position the copper lines up with the fire circuit allowing the circuit to be completed with the pull of the trigger and when turned to "safe" the circuit cannot be completed no matter if trigger is pulled or the weapon is dropped, etc. Fool proof safety...