Gunsmith Apprenticeship?

[kendog4570]

You might want to talk to Kendog4570 about this, he apprenticed under Mr. Jack Davis who catered to the National Match, Long range and Palma crowd here in Northern California in the 70's/80's/early 90's.

Jack was old school and a tough cookie to work with/for, Ken had to sweep lots of chips and clean up the shop often to find Jacks lost tools/cutters but he learned the old school way and is now doing top work.

He now knows how to keep his shop clean!.

I paid him to teach me. I didn't think it was right for him to do it for nothing. He was definitely old-school, but he was a prince to work with and be mentored by. He was a "tough cookie" (understandably) to all the chitbirds and 200 yard High-Masters that would call 17 times before their rifle was done and tell him how to do his job down to the last detail that they read about in Precision Shooting.

We had many a laugh over them guys.

[Edvil91]

I see what you mean Dan but I don't think sweeping a floor is a disservice to anyone. You have to start somewhere.

People don't want to put in the time an effort anymore to earn the right to be in the shop and prove yourself worthy of being a student of the trade.

18 years old fresh out of high school enrolled in Jr college trade school and picked up a job as a shop steward. I swept floors, Emptied the trash, Cleaned the rest room, cut material to size, drilled and tapped holes, prepped and painted small parts.

It took two years to get on a machine tool. Then you were doing little things like squaring up material for the machinist. or cleaning up welds, nothing major. you weren't trusted to do anything major.

In the OP's case this would not apply but there's nothing wrong with starting out at the bottom.

Exactly! You can't climb up the ladder if you never get your first step

[kurac]

Heck, yeah, I will take an apprentice any day. I have plenty of sanding to do and I will even feed you.

[valley82]

In the HVAC/R trade we use and abuse the newbies...tool gopher (from the roof to the truck and back all day), clean up specialist, you name it, if I don't want to do it the newbie gets nominated...it is a great way to weed out the people that do not have the drive to get things done no matter what the job entails. After a few months, if they last, we let them start doing actual mechanical jobs (the easy stuff that is hard to screw up). Slowly they get taught my way of doing things. After a few years of this, if they still have the same drive that kept them from being kicked to the curb when they were hired, they can start making a decent living in the trade.

One man shops are great right up until that one man gets hurt or sick, then you either lose or p!$$ off your customer base.

[ford63man]

In the HVAC/R trade we use and abuse the newbies...tool gopher (from the roof to the truck and back all day), clean up specialist, you name it, if I don't want to do it the newbie gets nominated...it is a great way to weed out the people that do not have the drive to get things done no matter what the job entails. After a few months, if they last, we let them start doing actual mechanical jobs (the easy stuff that is hard to screw up). Slowly they get taught my way of doing things. After a few years of this, if they still have the same drive that kept them from being kicked to the curb when they were hired, they can start making a decent living in the trade.

One man shops are great right up until that one man gets hurt or sick, then you either lose or p!$$ off your customer base.

I'm an HVAC tech also (24 years) and I just got an apprentice. the part that sucks is I'm getting older and broke down. and he's only a couple years younger than me almost as broken. there are just about no young motivated guys or gals that want to put the time in to learn the trade. And the ones that are motivated are too dumb to move up to service work.

[valley82]

I'm an HVAC tech also (24 years) and I just got an apprentice. the part that sucks is I'm getting older and broke down. and he's only a couple years younger than me almost as broken. there are just about no young motivated guys or gals that want to put the time in to learn the trade. And the ones that are motivated are too dumb to move up to service work.

Owner 23 years...I completely agree with you. They are out there, but very badly outnumbered by the dregs and the "is it lunch time yet" crowd.

[kcstott]

Owner 23 years...I completely agree with you. They are out there, but very badly outnumbered by the dregs and the "is it lunch time yet" crowd.

Recently went from a climate controlled tool room to a field service position About seven years ago and now lunch is something I pick up after the job is done and I'm on my way home. It's not worth stoping the job to go grab a bite unless i'm just starving take to damn long to figure out where I left off and what needs to be finished.

Valley You didn't happen to work for Action air-conditioning back in that day when they were located on South Sante Fe in Vista did You?? I ask because the shop I apprenticed in was right next door. Motion master inc. I was there for three years.
From 1990 to 1993

[valley82]

Yea, sometimes lunch is a sit down at Phill's BBQ and most times lunch is either on the way home or a drive through somewhere, time spent eating is that much longer the workday goes.

Nope back then our shop was on olive ave...other side of town.

[Mutenri]

Woah, I leave for a weekend and a thread I put up a week ago suddenly gets replies.

I tried to take on an apprentice once.
I bought the guy his own set of measuring tools and started out with all the shop safety stuff.
He never showed up for his first day of work.

Damn, I hope that hasn't disillusioned you with regards to apprentices. I assure you most some a few at least myself would pursue this out of genuine curiosity.

If your in NorCal Bay Area Your welcome to come over with a project to learn, I have a mill and lathe and always try to get the person involved if they have the interest/desire.

My philosophy is to pay it forward to someone who wants to learn.

Unfortunately I'm in Los Angeles, otherwise I'd jump at this.

In the HVAC/R trade we use and abuse the newbies...tool gopher (from the roof to the truck and back all day), clean up specialist, you name it, if I don't want to do it the newbie gets nominated...it is a great way to weed out the people that do not have the drive to get things done no matter what the job entails.

I don't mind this. I'm Asian and that's how our parent taught us about living.

[CRTguns]

If you are any good at your trade this should not be an issue, it is how your company can continue after you are old and unable to continue being a gunsmith, instead of your company getting old and decrepit along with you.

And this fear of training someone that might become better than you is why more and more everything is made overseas...
If the "journeymen" I use this term loosely, of the trade are not willing to teach their eventual replacements the next generation will be replaced in China and the built forever type products will be replaced with cheaper disposable products meant to be used until wornout and then replaced with a new one...
It is becoming this way already in many trades and product lines...

I'm 34 years old. Not old or decrepit. In fact, for fear of learning the old ways from "old decrepit guys" I've avoided any and all "gunsmithing school" or training course, I've never even had formal tool and die training. But along the way I've had my hands in a land speed record holding car, deep sea mining equipment, The US navy's submersible program, Oil Spill cleanup equipment, Oil drilling equipment, I've built guns for 4 world champions at their games, I've build guns that will soon show up in a cable series and hollywood movie. I write for 2 printed gun magazines. All based on what I know that others dont.

I've never feared that my apprentice will be better than me. I'd hope someday to find a guy that will in fact, be better than me. I was born with the ability to do what I do. I was just able to do it. There are plenty of people like this... and they are not out there on the job market. The market finds them. So the circle of life you describe will continue. At ease.

I can tell that you've not been in my shoes. Considering that, there's nothing I can say to help you understand.

The problems with "I wanna be a gunsmith"
Problem 1: New upstarts in the biz show a total lack of inherent skill... the natural "touch" that cannot be taught. Nobody has it anymore. This results in an apprentice damaging customers' guns.
Problem 2: apprentice wants what I've got (knowledge or guns). As soon as he gets a little bit of it, he's up the road... or worse, tries to setup shop with 1% of the required skillset, and begins dangerous work on peoples guns.
Problem 3: theft. plain and simple.

When I've taken on new guys in my shop... I'd always ask them to bring in some work they've done. I've never had a guy produce. Always the same excuse. "just do work for my buddies"

I've learned these lessons more than once. First time, could be a fluke. second time, that's a trend. How many times should a businessman set himself up to be taken advantage of? Tell me. Please. I'm listening. I'm not being cynical. Just watching out for my dollars.

Rausch... second this.

[CRTguns]

Man that's the biggest clue for insecurity I've ever heard. Sorry but that's a flat out Cop out....
If you have proprietary fixturing or tooling thats one thing but there is nothing that should ever be withheld in the trades. EVER.
The thing is to set yourself apart form others. Just because you know how to run a machine doesn't mean you know how to do it well. There are other ways to make a name for yourself then to guard your work.
I use to fire guys with this mentality....
Hire a toolmaker that thought he was to good to teach an Apprentice, I'd sit him down once and have a heart to hear with him....
.... Nothing but a house of half skilled overpaid idiots.

Hey buddy.... check yourself. I've worked and studied and struggled and earned what I know and am capable of. I do not owe that to anyone. It's mine, yes. My tricks and techniques, and tools and fixtures. My experience. My craft. Mine. You want it... go out and get your own.

This is still America, where a man can benefit from his own hard work. Not get the benefits from another guys hard work. WTF. How dare you?

You think I should freely give out my knowledge base? Good luck with that kind of thinking. Obama should institute that policy for all tradesmen.

The young guys coming into the industry are going to fail because they're candy coated emotionally cultivated boobs made that way by stupid schools and stupid parents. Not my problem, not my responsibility. I can teach method, I cannot teach skill. And I cannot fix stupid.

Union Machinist-pfft. It's anti Capitalism. I thumb my nose at you sir.

[CRTguns]

The whole purpose behind instituting a patent system was to protect intellectual property, to encourage and spur ideas and invention. If you really believe we should share what we know... you've missed the boat guys. It is beneficial to future generations to protect and limit the distribution of ideas and technology. It ensures that we maintain growth and progress. Methods and processes need to be seen by fresh eyes, re-evaluated by a new brain occasionally. This can only happen when "the new guy" is forced to figure stuff out on his own.

Holy cow I cant believe what I've read here tonight.

kcstott and valley82... Holy smokes. Read a history book.

[mbauer67]

Hey buddy.... check yourself. I've worked and studied and struggled and earned what I know and am capable of. I do not owe that to anyone. It's mine, yes. My tricks and techniques, and tools and fixtures. My experience. My craft. Mine. You want it... go out and get your own.

This is still America, where a man can benefit from his own hard work. Not get the benefits from another guys hard work. WTF. How dare you?

You think I should freely give out my knowledge base? Good luck with that kind of thinking. Obama should institute that policy for all tradesmen.

The young guys coming into the industry are going to fail because they're candy coated emotionally cultivated boobs made that way by stupid schools and stupid parents. Not my problem, not my responsibility. I can teach method, I cannot teach skill. And I cannot fix stupid.

Union Machinist-pfft. It's anti Capitalism. I thumb my nose at you sir.

This type of attitude is exactly why manufacturing is leaving the US, because dealing with this type of attitude is all too common. Other parts of the world are just easier to work with, with a whole lot less ego.

[kcstott]

34 years old and a lot left to learn about life. One day you will understand that statement in another twenty years or so.

[Lostsheep]

WRT apprenticeships. I find it highly important to make absolutely sure that I am not wasting my time teaching someone without aptitude or drive. I test for this by deliberately giving my guys (and gals) a task that I know is just beyond them. I gauge the aforementioned 2 criteria based on their response. Do they stop and think about how to achieve it first? Do they just say, "I can't do it" or do they go out and try. Are they asking for how to do it or are they asking questions that provide the information as to how to figure it out. It's like a physics problem; the solution is more important than the answer when you are learning. Whether they fail or succeed is no where near as important as their approach to the problem and their desire to get it done. A motivated person will figure it out and make it happen even if they fail once or twice. Every mistake I have ever made taught me something, and I've made a bunch.

It is the ones who try repeatedly until they figure it out that I will share my "tricks" with. These are the guys/gals who I want working for me and that I want to bounce ideas off of in the future as they progress.

I've seen old timers too many times get stuck in their ways and refuse to listen to the younger guys (what could they possibly know). Believe it or not, every master started as an apprentice and you are not a master if you stop trying to learn.

To answer the OP's question directly, yes there are those of us who appreciate an apprentice as long as they are worthy. I make money off of them and appreciate not having to do remedial tasks. If in the future they move along and/or exceed me, so be it, good for them. That being said, you have to earn my knowledge transfer.

34 years old and a lot left to learn about life.