anyone need to use some ak build tools? LA/OC

[denrbyn]

I have the tools to build ak47 if your in need let me know I dont have any 74 tools though located in LA/OC area. pm me and we can discuss thanks

[hawaii five-0]

Nice offer. You may wish to reconsider though.

[Ub3rD0rk]

When I first signed up for this forum, I was amazed at the wealth of knowledge and support from other members in regards to home building. Now it has become home to people suggesting not to lend someone a screwdriver because you can install an evil pistol grip on an AK. Even in the locked down state of California, no laws exist restricting the lending or rental of tools. The DOJ and ATF have done a very good job of convincing a large group that you can't lend or rent tools, but there is no laws written to support this. The fact is AK and CNC build parties are going strong, they just aren't mentioned here any longer. And I'd like to hear even one case where someone was convicted of felony tool lending.

OP, thank you for helping others in what is still a great and legal hobby. I know when I first started this offer would have been greatly welcomed.

[denrbyn]

yeah I think Its the same as telling someone you cant loan them a saw or any tool for that matter to build a house. as long as the person that owns the rifle does all the building whats the crime there. autozone rents tools to people to fix their cars are they breakin any laws? I dont think there is a case to be made

[munkeeboi]

I'm all for trying to help other people too, but unfortunately, the DOJ doesn't care about people building houses or cars. The fact that it's still very murky water on what is legal and what is not, people tend to be on the cautious side since ignorance is not a viable excuse.

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but no one really knows anything definitive right now which is why people tend to not advertise for or offer help (openly) with requests for 80% work on an open forum.

[valley82]

yeah I think Its the same as telling someone you cant loan them a saw or any tool for that matter to build a house. as long as the person that owns the rifle does all the building whats the crime there. autozone rents tools to people to fix their cars are they breakin any laws? I dont think there is a case to be made

While I agree with you, building houses and cars are not regulated by the CADOJ or the ATF. Building a house yourself can be done by pulling permits as an owner/builder after which you can hire "licensed contractors" to complete the portions that you are unable to complete yourself. Note the "licensed contractor" part, if you hire non-licensed guys off the street, you can be held liable for payroll taxes and workmans comp insurance by the state, especially if someone gets hurt on your site.
I also agree that lending or renting tools is not illegal, however, I do not wish to spend $250,000 in legal bills and a year or three getting that theory proven in court. The test case will be an expensive endeavor and most are unwilling to be the guinea pig.

[munkeeboi]

Great minds think alike

[kcstott]

Ub3rdork
If you've been a member for so long then you should know that the ATF is very well known for making up the rules as they go.

That and if you have done your research you will also know that in one of the letters that the ATF issued they claimed the the renting of " tooling and equipment including but not limited to CNC machines and fixtures" was illegal and the considered it unlicensed manufacturing.

Now to be clear I don't believe the renting, lending, leasing, borrowing, tools, tolling machines or fixturing is illegal even if there is compensation involved.
I do believe that completing an AR on preprogrammed machines is. Sadly what it's going to take is a court case. Case law is the only way to fight this crap.

But that can't happen until someone is busted and decides to fight. Laws cannot be overturned as unjust until someone has been unjustly harmed by it.

That and I'm getting a little tiered of explaining myself to everyone out there that has not properly followed this issue.
If you think it's so damn legal you buy the tools and set up shop. Stick you own neck on the line and see how it feels.
Sorry but until this issue is resolved I and others will not do receiver work.

[valley82]

Ub3rdork
If you've been a member for so long then you should know that the ATF is very well known for making up the rules as they go.

That and if you have done your research you will also know that in one of the letters that the ATF issued they claimed the the renting of " tooling and equipment including but not limited to CNC machines and fixtures" was illegal and the considered it unlicensed manufacturing.

Now to be clear I don't believe the renting, lending, leasing, borrowing, tools, tolling machines or fixturing is illegal even if there is compensation involved.
I do believe that completing an AR on preprogrammed machines is. Sadly what it's going to take is a court case. Case law is the only way to fight this crap.

But that can't happen until someone is busted and decides to fight. Laws cannot be overturned as unjust until someone has been unjustly harmed by it.

That and I'm getting a little tiered of explaining myself to everyone out there that has not properly followed this issue.
If you think it's so damn legal you buy the tools and set up shop. Stick you own neck on the line and see how it feels.
Sorry but until this issue is resolved I and others will not do receiver work.

YEP!

[Ub3rD0rk]

I wasn't aware that laws in our country were made by local agents writing letters and sending them out in the mail.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO LOAN TOOLS.

When the people allow laws to be dictated, laws will be dictated. I get that you may be afraid of the ATF holding you up in court for loaning a tool, but I'd rather face trumped up charges before being complicit in establishing defacto laws.

I went with 2 friends last week to an 80% CNC build party in the L.A. Area, and hung out while they milled out paper weights. The shop was busy and had a very casul atmosphere. This fear of the ATF seems to be limited to a handful of groups, this being one of them.

We all need to remember what laws are in this country and stop this nonsense of "I heard that so-n-so got arested for thinking of guns while he was looking at a drill press in Home Depot. So don't go in hardware stores cause it's illegal."

[TheComebacKid]

I have the tools to build ak47 if your in need let me know I dont have any 74 tools though located in LA/OC area. pm me and we can discuss thanks

Nice Try ATF!

Just kidding. I'm in SCV and appreciate your generosity.

[valley82]

I wasn't aware that laws in our country were made by local agents writing letters and sending them out in the mail.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO LOAN TOOLS.

When the people allow laws to be dictated, laws will be dictated. I get that you may be afraid of the ATF holding you up in court for loaning a tool, but I'd rather face trumped up charges before being complicit in establishing defacto laws.

I went with 2 friends last week to an 80% CNC build party in the L.A. Area, and hung out while they milled out paper weights. The shop was busy and had a very casul atmosphere. This fear of the ATF seems to be limited to a handful of groups, this being one of them.

We all need to remember what laws are in this country and stop this nonsense of "I heard that so-n-so got arested for thinking of guns while he was looking at a drill press in Home Depot. So don't go in hardware stores cause it's illegal."

I never said you should not loan tools...I said I am unwilling to give up my $$$, time and rights to be the guinea pig.
In fact, if you are so inclined, I would be willing to donate to your legal defense if you are willing to be the test case. Should be realitively simple, just schedule to build at the same location in your post and give the local ATF office a call and let them know when you will be there. Then we will all know by your experiences if there are any consequences or if it is in fact legal. Just an idea...

[kcstott]

I wasn't aware that laws in our country were made by local agents writing letters and sending them out in the mail.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO LOAN TOOLS.

When the people allow laws to be dictated, laws will be dictated. I get that you may be afraid of the ATF holding you up in court for loaning a tool, but I'd rather face trumped up charges before being complicit in establishing defacto laws.

I went with 2 friends last week to an 80% CNC build party in the L.A. Area, and hung out while they milled out paper weights. The shop was busy and had a very casul atmosphere. This fear of the ATF seems to be limited to a handful of groups, this being one of them.

We all need to remember what laws are in this country and stop this nonsense of "I heard that so-n-so got arested for thinking of guns while he was looking at a drill press in Home Depot. So don't go in hardware stores cause it's illegal."

Like I said you buy the tools you stick your neck out and you pay the attorney to keep you arse out of jail.

[kcstott]

I never said you should not loan tools...I said I am unwilling to give up my $$$, time and rights to be the guinea pig.
In fact, if you are so inclined, I would be willing to donate to your legal defense if you are willing to be the test case. Should be realitively simple, just schedule to build at the same location in your post and give the local ATF office a call and let them know when you will be there. Then we will all know by your experiences if there are any consequences or if it is in fact legal. Just an idea...

See this is the problem with people that were not kept in the loop of PM's going around from the Mods. they think this is all here say. Oh well let the dip find out for him self. I'm 10 blocks or less from where the ATF kicked in Ares door

If anyone here thinks for a minute that the ATF does not "make stuff up as they go" you are sorely mistaken. They will not only make stuff up but they will also send in UGA's to bait you and entrap you. it has happened many times before and they still haven't learned.

[cabinetguy]

I think the tool issue is being framed the wrong way. It is not illegal to loan tools to somebody else. It is not illegal to rent tools to somebody else. The thin grey line here is completing a firearm with tools that are not your own. I could borrow or rent a CNC to build a doohickey, but milling a receiver could land me in jail. If the owner if the tool knew I was intending to build a receiver on his tool, the owner might get some conspiracy charge.