Bolt Action Bedding Question

[MK75]

So I want to accurize my Stainless Barrel Weatherby Vanguard Sub Moa .270 Win. Sopposedly it shoots .5 MOA with factory ammo (factory shot target) but all I can produce is 1 MOA with factory ammo, which isn't bad, but I want more, more, more... Before you blame the shooter, stop. I am not going to toot my own horn, just give me the benefit of the doubt this time, please. I am going to start reloading for it soon, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. I was thinking that a good place to start as far as the rifle is concerned is by fully glass bedding the action. I want to know what the learned minds of CalGunners think. What products should I look into? What videos (youtube/or other) should I watch. What should I consider besides glass bedding the action? Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your time and effort.

[GreenAndy]

Glass bedding is a good place to start. There are videos on Youtube and Brownells site. Brownells and MidwayUSA are good places to start, in their GunTech sections, and video sections. They both sell the good products for glass bedding, read the reviews on how people like the products.
Also search the internet for bedding with AcraGlass, JB Weld, Marine Tex, Devcon, etc. They have all been used sucessfully. There are many sources for instruction and how-to.

Good luck. I like my Vanguard rifle.

[MK75]

GreenAndy,

Thank you kindly. I will be looking into that right away.

[kcstott]

Glass bedding is pretty easy. It's just time consuming. Acraglass is good stuff along with marine tex.

Bedding is one of many steps to increase the accuracy of the rifle.

Now as for your 1 MOA groups. any patterns like vertical stringing, horizontal stringing?
The pattern if there is one will point to potential problems.

[MK75]

kcstott,

No, pretty good/round groups. Just open. I think relitively cheap ammo is the culprit here. I have been shooting the <$1-$2 a pop hunting rounds. Great for deer or other like animals, not so much for hitting dimes at 300 yds. I mean, if you're into that sorta thing...

[Gunsmith Dan]

I would have to say I do not think bedding a Weatherby will result in any improved accuracy. Weatherby stocks have some of the tightest fits I have seen from any production bolt action ( not counting custom limited prodution rifles).

Take a sheet of 20lb copier paper and see it you can get it under the barrel to the other side and slide it back and forth( which I doubt you will). Then fully close and lock the bolt and wiggle it firmly side to side, up and down then forward and back. If you get practically no play and the paper slides around with no hang up anywhere then glass bedding will not be a benefit.

What WILL be a benefit for you is pillar bedding the receiver and that should definately improve your accuracy. The problem is alot of other factors will affect the accuracy that needs checking before you go off working on the rifle.


You need to measure the chamber dimensions and make sure that there is not to loose of a fit when a cartridge is in the chamber.

You need to measure the headspace and squareness of the bolt face as well as the extractor and how it fits over the cartridge rim.

You need to check the muzzle crown making sure it is in alignment with the bore and there is no dings, dents, scratches or rough spots.

You need to measure your cartridges to make sure the diameter and length are in spec and that the bullet tip aligns with the center of the primer.


There is several other things to check also but expecting 0.5 MOA from any rifle requires both the rifle and ammunition to be in spec and near perfect aligned.

[kcstott]

Lets see how do I put this.....

One a Weatherby Vanguard is not a Weatherby it's a Howa imported under Weatherby's name. It's still a good rifle but it most likely was never touched by Weatherby other then to test fire it.
The paper trick is not going to show you anything other then your stock having a pressure point which it should not have. .003" clearance is not enough for a free float And depending on the barrel contour may require significant relief to produce acceptable accuracy. Usually a free floated barrel will require .030" per side clearance to prevent the barrel from contacting the stock. I see this BS all the time in gunshops with a dollar bill. It's BS pure an simple. any barrel including straight taper barrels vibrate and they sure as hell vibrate more then +/-.003" -.005" If you can slip a sheet of paper under the barrel and it doesn't hang up it only proves that it was precisely inletted it doesn't mean it was correctly free floated. If your action screw are tight wiggling the bolt is not going to produce any felt movement. Not even to a guy like me that can feel .001" of slop on a fit.

Pillar bedding may add some rigidity but not much.
The thing is this rifle already printed a .5MOA group so it is capable of doing that in it's current condition. The other issue is the cheepo ammo. I would not recommend doing anything to this rifle until you work up some loads and see what this rifle is capable of with your ammo. Your groups tell me there is nothing wrong with the bedding or the stock rubbing. Uniformly roundish groups are what you are looking for and it's what you have. I'm betting Ammo.

Then there is the Blueprinting. The last thing you need is a full blueprint of the action. I say this because you have proof in your hand that the rifle is capable of producing .5 MOA groups. You just need to extract the accuracy this rifle has.

I for one could not sleep at night knowing I took good money from a customer to blue print a .5 MOA rifle. Thats just taking advantage of a customer that doesn't know any better. You have the target. There is nothing wrong with the rifle it's the ammo.

The money you spend developing load will be far cheaper then a blue print which you will still have to develop loads for anyway.

[MK75]

kcstott,

Thank you again for your time.
The barrel on my rifle is not free floated. It has pressure from the stock in the first inch of the barrel and the last inch of the fore-end applys upward pressure on the barrel. Should I look into free floating it properly? I have heard mixed reviews about free floated barrels. Everything from free floating being a clever marketing ploy by manufacturers to skip steps in properly seating and bedding a barrel to every barrel having it's own likes and dislikes as to being free floated, or having slight pressure at the tip, or being properly bedded.
I think you have presented the argument with the best logic. I will look into developing loads for the rifle, as is, with my already fire-formed brass and try to ring out the accuracy potential that way.
Thanks again

[Gunsmith Dan]

The "paper trick" is just test if there is and touching between the barrel and the stock, it is not used for exact measurements. If during that test the paper was hard to slide but did not hang up then you would take the stock off and do more exact measurements. While different barrel/ammo combinations cause different vibrations in a barrel 0.030 space for a .270 Win. is a bit much. The other problem with having a wider gap is you give a bigger opening for dust, dirt and/or other crap of getting in and negating the benefit of a free float.

While I am aware that Howa makes alot of rifles under different brands they are a very good quality Japanize firearms maker. Their production guns in many cases are better build and tigher fitted than alot of semi custom or custom rifles. Weatherby would not be putting their name on a 3rd party rifle if it was crap.

If only one type of bedding could be used Pillar bedding would hands down be better than Glass bedding. The pillar height on many pillars can be adjusted to lift the receiver up high enough for the barrel to clear the stock.

BUT

Like I said above as well as KC you can't expect great accuracy using ammo that is not perfectly in spec and alignment.

[RoyBatty]

How many brands, type, weight ammo have you tried...your rifle will shoot some better than others...

[kcstott]

Never said it was crap I said it wasn't a Weatherby. Unless it's an old Vanguard as in 70's but the only ones they guaranty to be sub MOA are the new Vanguard series 2 and that's not a Firestone Blvd shop rifle. Now I know they aren't on Firestone Blvd anymore But thats what I refer to their shop as. Because the most accurate and well made rifles came out of that shop. Ed like his dad would not compromise the Weatherby name on a pile of junk.
As for the free floating yes .030 is huge but it is what required to prevent any contact between the barrel and stock. Yes it will allow more dirt and crap to get in there but being that this is a sub MOA rifle it needs to be broken down every so often for a thorough cleaning and inspection. And if you're worried about screwing up your zero well that goes away with every batch of ammo put through it. Sub MOA is a whole other ball game when it come to care, cleaning, and feeding of a rifle.

Now my opinion is that any MOA rifle or sub MOA rifle should have a free floated barrel starting 2" from the receiver. Weatherby has always had a pressure point. Now you may be able to get the rifle to shoot nice with a pressure point but things move over time barrels heat up, expand, things just move around.
This is why I prefer on anything this precision to have a fully free floated barrel it removes a variable from the equation and lets the barrel vibrate unhindered.
Does it look like crap on anything but a Tactical rifle? Yep will it 99% of the time be more accurate then a closely inletted stock with or with or without a pressure point? Yep.
And FYI I've heard the same things about pressure points being a marking gimmick rifle voodoo FUD what ever you want to call it.
That said On a fine custom used for hunting larger game I want very precisely fit wood to the action and barrel. I'm not concerned with sub MOA groups. as long as the rifle can produce a 1.5 MOA i'm happy then I can also have wood that is beautifully fit to the metal.

[CS Sports]

Weatherby Vanguards are good rifles, but don't expect custom rifle accuracy and consistency from a $400 rifle.

Ive had good luck just adjusting the trigger and cutting a good crown. Just did that very thing on a buddy's 270, and it shoots very well.

Vanguard stocks are not really the best platform to do much bedding work. The material doesn't really allow proper adherence of the bedding material, and even if you do bed it properly with some mechanical locks, the stock itself will be less stiff than the bedding and will most likely cause problems over time.

Lastly, you are never going to get the best accuracy out of factory ammo. If you are expecting consistent .5 MOA with a $400 factory rifle and factory ammo, you may be in for a disappointment. Sure, it may shoot the occasional .5 MOA group, but no way it's going to do it consistently.

[MK75]

RoyBatty,

I have tried a few different 150gr factory hunting cartridges. I want to shoot deer sized game when I am not dinging steel at long distance (I would never take an unethically long shot at game). The factory target was shot using 150gr bullets and that weight would meet my needs perfectly. Especially if I am using premium bullets, I may even be able to take larger game. I am going to take the fire formed brass and start experimenting with 150gr Berger VLDs (deer) and 150gr Barnes TTSXs (bigger deer). If I can't get those pricey suckers into one hole groups, there is a larger problem I think.

[MK75]

kcstott,

I have the original Vanguard Sub-Moa Stainless, not the series 2. They don't make it anymore. It has the, "Composite Fiberguard pillar bedded stock (Aramid, graphite unidirectional fibers and fiberglass)". Also, I know exactly what you mean about fully appreciating a properly bedded wood stock, like the Weatherby Mark V Deluxe for example. Gorgious rifle, high on my wish list. Pin-point accuracy is not as important.

CS Sports,

It was a little bit more than $400 and the factory shot target was .5 MOA. I am just looking to reproduce what it has already proven to be capable of.

[MK75]

Also, just to throw it out there before it comes up.
I understand that .5 MOA groups are nowhere near necessary for a deer rifle. I am just obsessed with accuracy and it is something that it makes me happy to pursue.
Thank you all for contributing.