Magazine adapter for Saiga legal?

[Paltik]

I've recently acquired a Saiga rifle in .223 from RifleGear in Fountain Valley. (It was imported by the FIMEGroup in Las Vegas, also has a sandpaper/velcro field where something was blotted out.)

Some of the things I like about the Saigas are their reliability, price, and the fact that they are NOT all tacticool (I want the functionality, not the unwelcome attention). Since the Saiga comes with a detachable 10-round magazine, I want to assume I can legally adapt it to take AR magazines. However, not knowing the number or pedigree of the stock rifle parts, I don't actually know this to be true.

Has anyone checked into whether adding a Renegadebuck adapter to a new Saiga violates any relevant California or federal laws?

[CSACANNONEER]

Perfectly legal as long as you keep it Ca compliant (not an AW-no evil features or mag locked) and, since it would no longer be "importable", it must comply with 922(r).

[Paltik]

Here is my confusion. A stock Saiga has 14 imported parts:

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Mounting block, trunnion
(4) Bolt
(5) Bolt carrier
(6) Gas piston
(7) Trigger
(8) Hammer
(9) Disconnector
(10) Buttstock
(11) Forearms, handguard
(12) Magazine body
(13) Follower
(14) Floorplate

If I add the adapter, the Saiga still has those 14 imported parts--but now it can accept high-capacity magazines (none of which I own, possess, etc.).

So what I'm wondering is:

(a) Is the adapter itself violating any law? Would I also need to remove more imported parts to fit one?
(b) Would using a detachable 5-round AR magazine violate the law? What about a 10-round magazine? Would inserting the 5-round magazine be assembling a rifle with more than 10 imported parts? Would I need to remove a part or two if I added this functionality to remain legal?
(c) If I DO "convert" the Saiga by swapping out, say, the forearm and buttstock for sporting ones built in America, what about putting the original magazine in--would that be assembling a rifle with 12 imported parts?

TIA

[wellfedirishman]

Good info here:

http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html

From what I understand (verify this for your yourself, it is your gun):

The Saiga has 14 imported parts including a magazine. If you modify it from its imported condition, 922r applies.

So you could use US magazines (3 parts, so now you are down to 11 imported parts). Put in a US gas piston and you are down to 10 parts (compliant). Add a US hammer and you are down to 9 imported parts for a little margin of safety. Just don't use any non-US made magazines.

If you decide to convert it to pistol grip configuration, you gain 3 parts (hammer, trigger, disconnector), but have to deal with CA AW laws.

[SJgunguy24]

Your over thinking this, really.
I would convert the back end and run a grip wrap, MMG, or hammerhead. Now you have 3 parts from the new FCG and a stock is another one. Ok your done, now your free to install the adapter and run beta c mags until the cows come home.
I made a stock for my saiga 223 that doubles as a battering ram, garden hoe, or last ditch zombie eradication deviCe. I run AR mags and just put 200 flawless rounds through it last week.

[Paltik]

The Saiga has 14 imported parts including a magazine. If you modify it from its imported condition, 922r applies.

This is homing in on the clarification I'm seeking. It seems you're saying (and it makes sense) that adapting a Saiga to take AR (or AK or M14, depending on model) magazines, or adapting any such magazine to fit the Saiga, is a "modification from imported condition" and 922(r) kicks in. This is because it involves taking a dremel to the receiver, a "countable part."

An American-made 10-round magazine designed for the Saiga, however, does not count as modifying the rifle from its imported condition, as no modification was performed on the rifle to get it to accept the magazine; 922(r) does not apply, the rifle remains legal as imported.

So the answer to my question would be that modifying the receiver so a Saiga can accept any magazine--even an otherwise legal magazine--puts the rifle into the 922(r) category, and additional "countable parts" on the Saiga must be converted to American. (As I understand it, additions of parts that don't affect importability do not count as modifications--but meh.)

I'll probably work from this basis, unless someone comes up with more compelling points to consider...

[Paltik]

Your over thinking this, really.

Beats not thinking, I guess. I just like the basic as-imported Saiga, with just one difference--cheaper, more widely available magazines. I think I'll have to end up doing more extensive conversion, as you suggest, but it seems a waste since I'm not going for pistol grip or AK appearance.

[morthrane]

Beats not thinking, I guess. I just like the basic as-imported Saiga, with just one difference--cheaper, more widely available magazines. I think I'll have to end up doing more extensive conversion, as you suggest, but it seems a waste since I'm not going for pistol grip or AK appearance.

Its not all waste. I don't mind the saiga 308 trigger, but the 223/7.62x39 saiga triggers with the extra lever action are pretty clunky and not enjoyable IMHO. The tapco G2 trigger is very nice by comparison. I believe there is a version that allows you to keep the OEM stock as well, but I don't know if its any improvement over the stock trigger. If you went that route, you'd only need one more part to swap-- maybe the gas piston for a US made one-- and I think that's enough to satisfy 922r and still allow you to use your russian mags along with the american AR mags.

IANAL, so do your homework.

[BigfootHunter]

Maybe I misread something you typed earlier, but if you don't already have any pre-ban AR magazines, swapping to an adapter that uses AR mags seems a little silly. Also, I have the Dinzag modified G2 trigger on my unconverted Saiga 223 and it is much better, not the same as a regular G2 with a conversion (you still have the transfer bar to make things a little less direct feeling) but it breaks much cleaner than the factory "trigger". Plus it's a US part and along with my US magazine and gas piston means 922r isn't an issue. YMMV, IANAL.

[morthrane]

Maybe I misread something you typed earlier, but if you don't already have any pre-ban AR magazines, swapping to an adapter that uses AR mags seems a little silly.

Even if you only have 10rnd AR mags... if you already have a bunch of them, the adapter would be worth it for commonality. (if you don't, I'd agree, what's the point?)

[Paltik]

...If you don't already have any pre-ban AR magazines, swapping to an adapter that uses AR mags seems a little silly. Also, I have the Dinzag modified G2 trigger on my unconverted Saiga 223 and it is much better, not the same as a regular G2 with a conversion (you still have the transfer bar to make things a little less direct feeling) but it breaks much cleaner than the factory "trigger". Plus it's a US part and along with my US magazine and gas piston means 922r isn't an issue.

My understanding is that AR magazines per se are legal in California--just not high-capacity ones. Am I mistaken in this? I can get a 10-round AR magazine for $17, compared with a 10-round Saiga magazine for $26, if I buy 8 magazines the adapter pays for itself. But mainly I'm thinking it's easier to find old AR mags lying around that old Saiga mags.

Thanks for the tip on the trigger; it looks like Dinzag's Tapco G2 kits ($62) for factory-config rifles counts as two compliance parts (no trigger). That would let me use the AR mags, but to be safe using the original mag it leaves me with two more parts to swap out...perhaps a gas piston ($13) and a Rhineland Arms wooden forearm ($35). tri-rail handguard ($45).

So, to add a $77 magazine adapter to a $420 rifle, I just need to spend $110 in other parts--improving the trigger but detracting from the sporting look in the process (rails). I still like it better than a Mini-14 or actual AR15.

Since the adapter is removable, I'm praying my Saiga is one of those that doesn't require any modification to the trunion to accept AR mags; then I'll have the capability to take them if the S ever HTF and can use the Saiga in its imported condition for plinking, varminting, etc.

[BigfootHunter]

I guess it's up to you as far as cost/benefit, but I've never heard of a 223 Saiga that didn't need milling to allow the adapter to work. the magazines won't insert far enough to feed without it.

Also, if you check on gun broker, etc. there are plenty of people who live in free states trying to part with their low capacity 10 rounders. A quick search I just did showed someone selling 3 for $15 ea. Also, I swapped on an Ultimak gas tube instead of a tri-rail, as I am not a fan of the tactic00l setup on the Saiga either and wanted it to appear as close to stock as possible.

If I had it to do over again, I'd skip the Tech Sights.

[Paltik]

Also, if you check on gun broker, etc. there are plenty of people who live in free states trying to part with their low capacity 10 rounders. A quick search I just did showed someone selling 3 for $15 ea. Also, I swapped on an Ultimak gas tube instead of a tri-rail, as I am not a fan of the tactic00l setup on the Saiga either and wanted it to appear as close to stock as possible.

I like your rifle--that's the sort of featureless look I'm hoping for.

I spent about 15 minutes searching for $15 magazines but must not have found the auction site you saw. I did see some $22 ones on eBay, but $7 shipping...

Also, I don't think the gas tube would help me--isn't it either the same as the piston (which I already counted) or not a part as far as compliance is concerned?

Plain-vanilla buttstocks and forearms made in the USA are conspicuously missing from the field of conversion parts. (The only sporting buttstocks I've seen specifically say they require the trigger group moved forward or not for 100 series Saigas.)

[morthrane]

Also, I don't think the gas tube would help me--isn't it either the same as the piston (which I already counted) or not a part as far as compliance is concerned?

The gas tube/upper handguard and lower handguard count as a single part, if I'm reading the 922r parts list correctly. No idea how that's supposed to work when one's US and the other's foreign.

A better functional part would be putting a muzzle brake on the front-end, to fill out the tapco non-converted g2 trigger and a gas piston. Little more involved in terms of work required than a 3-part converted g2 trigger, US stock, and US pistol grip or featureless grip.

[Paltik]

A better functional part would be putting a muzzle brake on the front-end, to fill out the tapco non-converted g2 trigger and a gas piston. Little more involved in terms of work required than a 3-part converted g2 trigger, US stock, and US pistol grip or featureless grip.

There is no upper forearm on the factory Saiga, so adding USA-made muzzle brake, piston, and FCG only removes 3 compliance parts, compared with FCG, stock, and forearm (4 parts) or FCG, piston, and forearm (4 parts).

The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to JUST do the FCG and then only use USA mags. Discarding the one Russian mag that comes with the rifle seems preferable to me over downgrading the gas piston and messing with the forearm. I end up with two modifications that bring inherent benefits (better trigger pull, cheaper mags) and none that are only cosmetic or potentially degrading, and end up with pretty much exactly what I want: a sporter Saiga with detachable AR15 magazines.