Beating a dead horse.

[amcruz987]

So after posting in the want to buy section that I would like to rent/buy a toth tool AK builders set, a fellow calgunner PM'd me stating that it's not allowed anymore to loan/rent tools for builds. Am I missing something or is that a real thing?

[Don Vito]

Yes tru I believe it can be misconstrued as a build party

[Gene1986]

Sorry!

[kcstott]

Well not exactly

You can rent tools they just have to be used at your premises.

Issue is, few people will actually rent anything. there was a flat bending die that was rented out years ago and it made its rounds a few time never to be seen again, so people are very reluctant to rent. That and the half arsed comprehension boys here have on rules laws and recommendations,

[amcruz987]

I can imagine one being hesitant to loan/rent especially after hearing horror stories of tools going "missing". That's why I posted I would gladly pay a deposit if such a circumstance were to happen, but after a fellow cal gunner mentioned to me it could be considered a build party, it got me thinking. Now I know the generalization of build parties and what they consist of but if one were to borrow tools from a friend and construct it at their own home wouldn't that still be considered a home build and not a build party?

If having to really think about what's going on its frustrating in many aspects because if applied to any other thing you build it's fine, but for firearms it's a totally different thought process.

Ahhh...the liberal mindset must be full of unknowing torment for ones own critical thinking instead of thinking with emotion. Gotta love it.

[Barbarosa]

[Gowking]

I can imagine one being hesitant to loan/rent especially after hearing horror stories of tools going "missing". That's why I posted I would gladly pay a deposit if such a circumstance were to happen, but after a fellow cal gunner mentioned to me it could be considered a build party, it got me thinking.

Well if you are serious to paying to rent the tools and pay a deposit why not just buy outright and then sell used. The math is about the same, problem solved.

[amcruz987]

Well if you are serious to paying to rent the tools and pay a deposit why not just buy outright and then sell used. The math is about the same, problem solved.

Because depending on how cheap I can rent it for and pay the deposit in it, I can get my deposit back and have money for that deal that always pops up when the money isn't there on time haha

Having to wait for one to sell can leave you out in the cold sometimes, I'm sure we've all been there more then a few times. Also, toth tool doesn't have a full set in stock, that's the real deal breaker at the end of the day.

[javithewrench]

If your building off a 100% registered receiver you can borrow tools or pay a gunsmith to build it for you. If your building an 80% then you must build it yourself with your own tools.

[kcstott]

I can imagine one being hesitant to loan/rent especially after hearing horror stories of tools going "missing". That's why I posted I would gladly pay a deposit if such a circumstance were to happen, but after a fellow cal gunner mentioned to me it could be considered a build party, it got me thinking. Now I know the generalization of build parties and what they consist of but if one were to borrow tools from a friend and construct it at their own home wouldn't that still be considered a home build and not a build party?

If having to really think about what's going on its frustrating in many aspects because if applied to any other thing you build it's fine, but for firearms it's a totally different thought process.

Ahhh...the liberal mindset must be full of unknowing torment for ones own critical thinking instead of thinking with emotion. Gotta love it.

What you are proposing is fine.

The issue is some people either didn't bother to read the letter or just cherry picked what they wanted to hear and moved on.

The issue of legality comes into play when profit is involved. i.e. renting tools, BATFE expressly forbids a non licensed person from profiting from the construction of another non licensed builders weapon. They also forbid facilitating the unlicensed manufacture of firearms for profit.

Borrowing tools has never been illegal. Borrowing tools and the use thereof on property that is not under your direct control can be construed as illegal but only if that property is a business.. again the "For profit" thing. and that's even if the business wasn't compensated.

It's all laid out quite clear in the letter, The problem is it is forgotten that the first part of the paragraph start out with "In the business of" or "deriving a significant portion of your livelihood and source of income from"

The BATFE is perfectly clear on profiting from builds.

They make no mention of the use of tools with no compensation involved so long as those tools are located on the builder's property.

There is also nothing "gray" about how you are to complete an 80%. I don't know why this issue keeps coming up. The BATFE is quite clear.
Acquire the tools to use on your property without compensation to a second party. It's that simple. if you own the tools or borrowed them and used them on your property there is no "Gray area"

People like me that have tools will not loan them period. I have trust in a few individuals that i have personally worked with and know that if i handed them a tool it would be used and if something should happen to it there would be no discussion of it's replacement. It would be replaced with no grief. I work the same way. If a tool is loaned to me it is known that if I screw it up it will be replaced with the exact same thing or better no matter the cost. that is the price of working relationships and friendship.

In this day and age finding people willing to pony up to that level is not easy.

That's it in a nutshell.

ATF letter

Read it, Understand it, and move on.

But as you do read it please note that nowhere does it mention the the use of tools not for profit. It's does limit associations and societies so Non profit organizations have been thought of and limited.

But two buddies getting together to build something with the sharing of tools and knowledge is not illegal as per the ATF.

[amcruz987]

It took me some time to read the letter and you are correct to doesn't say that a couple if friends aren't allowed to build one together. As per the renting of someone's tools, I can imagine the uneasiness of loaning tools, especially those of a gunsmith, to a random person on the internet. While it may have been a long shot, I was just seeing if I could use them for the 1 build I have, but like others have said, you can't just build 1.

Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy a ser. It was worth a shot though right?

Thank you all who have shared your thoughts on the matter. Hopefully it clears up the air for some that have been in my boat. With the impending bills going into law, I would imagine more and more people will seek calguns as the go to for information, as I did back in 2013 after Sandy hook.

[jericho89]

KCSTOTT,
The BATFE letter is black and white, but they are not the only agency that is regulating the manufacturing of the receiver. Having done work for the BDTFE and the CADOJ I know that the BATFE really does not care much if a private party, who can legally build a firearm, does so as long as it is of legal configuration and uses it in a legal manor. They are not the ones who will kick in your door. The "grey area" is the CADOJ. They interpret the BATFE letter different and they intend to use it as a basis for their agenda. If you think that the CADOJ sees things the same way as the feds do just ask anyone outside of CA what a standard capacity magazine it.

Remember the BATFE raided the build parties for two reasons, to verify that legal people were building guns and because they were not getting their tax money on gun manufacturing. So in short the Feds want their tax money the CADOJ just wants your guns.

The moral of the story is whether you complete your 80% lower by yourself or as a group that is up to you... NOONE will know the difference if you would just keep your mouth shut and not advertise your intentions on the internet. Remember the CADOJ (as stated a few times on calguns by vendors) tracks all gun related purchases made by CA residents (in the form of legal requests for purchase records). That includes accessories, ammo, reloading supplies, parts kits, 80% receivers, and what ever else they want to. So if you think you bought an 80% receiver and you will be able to make your gun and the government will not know, guess again. They may not know for sure but they will suspect from your purchase history, so there is no need to confirm anything with picture proof and story telling.

As a good lawyer I know has printed on the back of his business card says:
"You have the right to remain silent, anything you say CAN and WILL be MISQUOTED and used against you in the court of law"

[kcstott]

It's KCSTOTT by the way.

And I've never heard of the CaDOJ doing anything other than show up and huff... like all the off list lower stuff the didn't like it but the knew there was nothing illegal about it either..
AFAIK no Build party in San Diego county was ever shut down by anyone other then the organizers, Two the DOJ never showed up.

If that's not the case I'd like to hear from the guys that were there.

[jericho89]

Apologies for the name mistake, I have read it wrong all of these years. But the CADOJ has created their own taskforce to track down and investigate any person who has purchased an 80% receiver that they feel does not have the legal right to do so. They have made arrests of people who have purchased and manufactured firearms in an illegal way. What constitutes and illegal way was never explained to me, but I did not have clearance for that information. And I do not know what you are referring to in San Diego and build parties being shut down, never heard that information before.

[kcstott]

Apologies for the name mistake, I have read it wrong all of these years. But the CADOJ has created their own taskforce to track down and investigate any person who has purchased an 80% receiver that they feel does not have the legal right to do so. They have made arrests of people who have purchased and manufactured firearms in an illegal way. What constitutes and illegal way was never explained to me, but I did not have clearance for that information. And I do not know what you are referring to in San Diego and build parties being shut down, never heard that information before.

It means that NO ATF nor DOJ ever showed face at the build parties i Attended and they were only shut down due to the rumors then the letter.

I believe the CaDOJ nabbed a few idiots that were manufacturing without a license.

Common sense spelled out what a "home build" was Ares Armor pushed that envelope to the max with the renting of machine tools to complete 80%, they then were issues a letter to cease and desist and they refused so they got their pee pee slapped and deservingly so. And I'm not even talking about the polymer lower BS they went through.

I'm by no means saying we are safe, But I believe since I spent the time to read the case files of many a dipchit that was busted machining AR lowers that the BATFE and the CADOJ went after people that had no business doing what they were doing.

Thing is this topic pops up every week or two like clock work. No one searches, or if they do they don't spend enough time reading to understand where we are with things today.