greasing guns

[rixom6]

Hello,

I was recently told that I need to use specific stainless steel grease. Can someone explain this to me? I currently use RIG grease, but I see that they make a stainless steel formula.

[Pofoo]

Total bs. Grease is basically thick oil, so you use it where you want it to stay put. Most any kind will work on ss, carbon steel, al, etc. Viscosity is temperature dependent (don't use thick stuff in cold weather, etc.).
I generally use (sparingly) high temp disc brake grease because I have a few tubs of it in the garage. Used to use the RIG's that came with a cleaning kit till I ran out.
I think this all came about when ss guns started to become popular 25 yrs ago, because some ss alloys will gall easier in high pressure areas than carbon steel, but those alloys aren't used in modern guns.

[roger1022]

Nope. Any grease (for firearms) will be fine. Some people have used lithium or synthetic grease as well.

[sonofeugene]

Synthetic will hold up better. And if it's got molybdenum disulfide of tungsten disulfide in it, so much the better.

Fyi, I burnish in a paste of tungsten disulfide powder and oil/grease (thick paste with very high powder content) and cycle the action a couple hundred times. Then I clean it off and oil/grease as usual. It's sometimes amazing how much smoother the action gets and it's also excellent for preventing wear.

[Dutch Henry]

RIG is a calcium sufonate complex grease, known for having high resistance water and corrosion. The products name is short for RUST INHIBITING GREASE and it that capacity it works very well. I've used RIG for well over 40 years and I have never had a gun treated with it show any signs of rust.

RIG was unavailable for a time but Birchwood Casey is now making it again.

There are probably better lubricants around, but if you are looking for a grease to use for storage to inhibit rust and corrosion, RIG is about as good as it gets.

Incidentally, I use it for all of my guns; blue and stainless.

For more on calcium sulfonate greases, see: http://www.chemtura.com/deployedfile...lexGreases.pdf

[cdb2468]

i think it might be from galling? When you rub stainless on stainless (like slide to frame, sear to hammer, stuff like that )and especially in high pressure areas stainless has a tendency to start to share electrons or has this tendency to do something where it microscopically falls apart. It will start to form tiny tiny microscopic beads that roll up into bigger beads and cracks form. you NEVER want to have a stainless sear and stainless hammer because it will become gummy and will not be as crisp. Stainless work hardens which is a nice feature if you use a stainless sear OR hammer. Back to your question, which you need ot know the galling thing to understand the lube thing, in short the lube prevents this.That simple. NEVER run stainless on stainless dry. idk what specific greases/lubes do this but im sure there are specifically formulated ones that keep those electrons in their place or nullify any intermolecular forces that could cause this. This is what ive heard, dont quote me on it but it has explained many things to me. hope this helps

[Sergius]

I use two types of greases: Lucas "Red N' Tacky" Grease and Redline CV-2 grease. They are both NLGI #2 greases. The Lucas grease is just like the name says, tacky. It holds onto the greased surface very well. After firing 100-200 rounds at the range, it's still there. I don't doubt that it would still hold on for another 400 or 500 rounds. The Lucas grease is a lithium complex grease which is the most common type.

The Redline grease I just started testing out. It's not as slick as the Lucas grease, but it has red molybdenum disulphide, as opposed to black moly. The red moly is allegedly better performing. What I have noticed with the Redline grease is that although it's NLGI #2 like the Lucas grease, it seems thicker and is harder to lay down an even film. The Lucas grease is easy to lay down a thin film and I've been using it for years with great results. The Redline grease is uses a calcium thickener, which is superior to the lithium complex in wet environments.

I suggest Lucas "Red N' Tacky" grease. You can find it at Home Depot, Autozone, or O'Reilly Auto Parts.

I also ordered Super Lube Multi-Purpose PTFE grease which I am waiting on. I have heard good things about that grease as well and am eager to test it out.

[NoHeavyHitter]

Early guns made of stainless required a special grease like RIG +P due to the alloys they used having problems "galling". Galling is sort of like when metal behaves like the rubber pieces rolling off of a pencil eraser.

People who don't know about this are too young to remember when stainless firearms first came out and the kinds of problems they had. Heck, many of these children weren't even born yet - so that's why they're ignorant about this.

Unless you own something old like an AMT - you probably don't need to worry.

[Sergius]

One other thing I should note is that using grease on the slide rails on certain handguns may slow the action down some. On 1911's, I use grease on the slide rails but notice a much faster action when I use oil instead. On an AR15, I don't really notice much of a difference but prefer grease on the bolt carrier bearing surfaces because it stays put and doesn't burn off. The bolt itself will be oiled. Some firearms may not like grease.

Some people say handguns should not be greased, just oiled. I prefer grease on the rails and oil on all other lube points. I don't own any stainless steel handguns, so I can't speak from experience, but as long as you lube the contact points then you shouldn't have any issues. Like others have stated, you don't want to run stainless steel dry.

[kcstott]

i think it might be from galling? When you rub stainless on stainless (like slide to frame, sear to hammer, stuff like that )and especially in high pressure areas stainless has a tendency to start to share electrons or has this tendency to do something where it microscopically falls apart. It will start to form tiny tiny microscopic beads that roll up into bigger beads and cracks form. you NEVER want to have a stainless sear and stainless hammer because it will become gummy and will not be as crisp. Stainless work hardens which is a nice feature if you use a stainless sear OR hammer. Back to your question, which you need ot know the galling thing to understand the lube thing, in short the lube prevents this.That simple. NEVER run stainless on stainless dry. idk what specific greases/lubes do this but im sure there are specifically formulated ones that keep those electrons in their place or nullify any intermolecular forces that could cause this. This is what ive heard, dont quote me on it but it has explained many things to me. hope this helps

Ok One who told you this line of BS??

Two all metals in close proximity share electrons?? it's called conduction and it does not contribute to galling the way you think. I could write a dissertation on metals in close contact under pressure becoming welded together but that applies to all metals ferrous and non ferrous

Three 'Stainless work hardens" and so do all steels. Stainless, particularly 300 series is very susceptible to work hardening but the alloys used in modern weapon are far more resistant to work hardening 410BQ, 416RBQ, 416L Carpenter 450, 17-4 and 18-8

Galling is caused by FRICTION and nothing else. Galling is the bonding of material being torn from one surface and sticking to the other. think of it as welding at the microscopic level. Galling of stainless parts can and does occur on assemblies between two different steels, so the old adage of stainless on stainless is a bad idea is a bit out dated.

This is where it is important to understand the materials you work with. Older weapons made from less refined alloys of stainless, sure more precautions to prevent galling need to be taken. But I would have no problem using a high quality stainless hammer and sear in the same pistol or rifle.

How do you prevent galling

Lubrication is number one. and you don't need some fancy wiz bang snake oil to do the job, and good disk brake grease High temp and as stated previously with Molly D all the better.

Second is surface finish which is the better the finish the lower the friction.

Stainless threads were notorious for galling, well if you take your time and polish the last few thou as you approach your pitch diameter you will not have that issue.

[cdb2468]

Ok One who told you this line of BS??

Two all metals in close proximity share electrons?? it's called conduction and it does not contribute to galling the way you think. I could write a dissertation on metals in close contact under pressure becoming welded together but that applies to all metals ferrous and non ferrous

Three 'Stainless work hardens" and so do all steels. Stainless, particularly 300 series is very susceptible to work hardening but the alloys used in modern weapon are far more resistant to work hardening 410BQ, 416RBQ, 416L Carpenter 450, 17-4 and 18-8

Galling is caused by FRICTION and nothing else. Galling is the bonding of material being torn from one surface and sticking to the other. think of it as welding at the microscopic level. Galling of stainless parts can and does occur on assemblies between two different steels, so the old adage of stainless on stainless is a bad idea is a bit out dated.

This is where it is important to understand the materials you work with. Older weapons made from less refined alloys of stainless, sure more precautions to prevent galling need to be taken. But I would have no problem using a high quality stainless hammer and sear in the same pistol or rifle.

How do you prevent galling

Lubrication is number one. and you don't need some fancy wiz bang snake oil to do the job, and good disk brake grease High temp and as stated previously with Molly D all the better.

Second is surface finish which is the better the finish the lower the friction.

Stainless threads were notorious for galling, well if you take your time and polish the last few thou as you approach your pitch diameter you will not have that issue.

Uhmm I believe it was bob Dunlap of agi videos or an instructor somewhere. I was told it had to do with intermolecular forces or some arrangement of polarity, but whatever it was, it encouraged the metal to break down and parts of crystalline structure to fall apart because as other molecules rub and come into contact (the 2 stainless parts) the forces at play between them tend to push and pull other charged parts of the crystalline structure off of the main structure of the metal and onto other parts or clumps, causing deterioration of the material at the molecular level. When molecules "weld" as you say it usually involves sharing of an electron or two or three, I don't think there is bonding here but some form of intermolecular force.... So when I say it comes from sharing of elections or ions pulling them towards them we May nkt be on the same page but well maybe same chapter at least Haha. I may have missed the friction part though.

Anyways the important part is that you say it's older guns/stainless series only right? Not something I have worry about these days so much? since you say that the industry has moved more towards stainless that is resistant to work hardening and galling, when it comes to barrels, will stainless barrels still typically last longer? I am under the impression, and may be falsely, that stainless barrels do last longer because of the work hardening that happens under expansion and contraction under Fire. Is that no longer as much the case? If not for work hardenkng what causes stainless to last longer? And when cutting their chambers is it less critical to make sure the reamer never stays still and "work hardens" the barrel? I'm sure some of these readers would benefit from understanding how and why some of these details happen... Thank you for taking the time to answer and correct me if you do.

[rixom6]

Early guns made of stainless required a special grease like RIG +P due to the alloys they used having problems "galling". Galling is sort of like when metal behaves like the rubber pieces rolling off of a pencil eraser.

People who don't know about this are too young to remember when stainless firearms first came out and the kinds of problems they had. Heck, many of these children weren't even born yet - so that's why they're ignorant about this.

Unless you own something old like an AMT - you probably don't need to worry.

What year about is considered an early stainless?

I have an unhealthy obsession with old guns and may one day come across an early stainless gun. So the information would be useful.

[kcstott]

Uhmm I believe it was bob Dunlap of agi videos or an instructor somewhere. I was told it had to do with intermolecular forces or some arrangement of polarity, but whatever it was, it encouraged the metal to break down and parts of crystalline structure to fall apart because as other molecules rub and come into contact (the 2 stainless parts) the forces at play between them tend to push and pull other charged parts of the crystalline structure off of the main structure of the metal and onto other parts or clumps, causing deterioration of the material at the molecular level. When molecules "weld" as you say it usually involves sharing of an electron or two or three, I don't think there is bonding here but some form of intermolecular force.... So when I say it comes from sharing of elections or ions pulling them towards them we May nkt be on the same page but well maybe same chapter at least Haha. I may have missed the friction part though.

Anyways the important part is that you say it's older guns/stainless series only right? Not something I have worry about these days so much? since you say that the industry has moved more towards stainless that is resistant to work hardening and galling, when it comes to barrels, will stainless barrels still typically last longer? I am under the impression, and may be falsely, that stainless barrels do last longer because of the work hardening that happens under expansion and contraction under Fire. Is that no longer as much the case? If not for work hardenkng what causes stainless to last longer? And when cutting their chambers is it less critical to make sure the reamer never stays still and "work hardens" the barrel? I'm sure some of these readers would benefit from understanding how and why some of these details happen... Thank you for taking the time to answer and correct me if you do.

Well you can believe all the molecular BS all you want. That has nothing to do with it. Some stainless steels are just plain gummy and soft. they don't machine worth a damn, they don't shear or stamp worth a damn. Galling is welding and I can and have proved it with nitric acid etch. you can weld to pieces of metal together with enough time and pressure, Time and pressure is all that is required for welding. that is when electron sharing comes into play.
Galling is near the same process speed up. But I can get brass to gall on steel or Titanium to gall on anything. it's the gumminess of the material

As for your idea on work hardening and barrel life.... Yeah well... Uhh. NO. Nope no way. See when a piece of stainless work hardens it's pretty much useless at that point, Work hardening is not a property desirable in anything firearms related, It also has ZERO to do with barrel life. Work hardening is also not caused by expansion and contraction, at least not to the extent that a barrel moves upon cartridge ignition, Which can only be some what measured with a strain gauge.

So out of your pool of barrels that you think have a better life expectancy How many were have Heat treat certs?? How many have a hardness test traceable to NIST??, How many were shot under the exact same conditions?? with the same ammo loaded to the same pressure specs?? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, What I'm getting at is there are no hard and fast rules on how a barrel is heat treated and stress relieved. Everybody has there own idea and I can tell you fact on that barrels even from the same manufacturer vary in hardness enough to notice how well they machine. and to notice one barrel being soft compared to the other means a swing of about 20 RC points.

[kcstott]

Ok now that I have a little more time to elaborate on what causes galling in stainless here goes.

Galling, and thread seizing are one and the same mechanical malfunctions that can occur with metals that self generate an oxide layer. Stainless, aluminum, titanium, are the most common metals that exhibit this property.
The cause is and read this clearly. Friction!! The oxide layers get stripped away during assembly or use depending on the application. This exposes the softer underlying alloy, the softer alloy is the abraded by the oxide layer and tendsto stick to the oxide layer. The process once begun self sustains until mechanical lock up occurs. Once this lock up occurs there is little that can be done to save the parts.

Now as this pertains to firearms the reason we say it is an old issue is because some where up the line the manufactures figured out that slightly different alloys and a good Moly B lube did the trick.

The key is different alloys, not different classes of alloys. A difference as subtle as 303 & 304 is enough to solve the issue
400 series is far less likely to seize but still has the potential to do so.

Prevention is easy, do not use identical alloys or hardnesses, finish contact surfaces to a low Ra finish i.e. A high polish and use a good moly B lube.
Simple as that.