1911 What is High End and Low End Differences

[Rat1911]

Hi All,

• I'm sure this gets asked all the time. But I haven't found the info I am looking for?

• What prompted this was a conversation I had with Sarco about the 1911 Para Castings that need to be finished machine. His statement was inferring the quality wasn't the best? Also, stated the RIA frames are better? The only difference I can tell between the two is one is finished and the other is a raw casting.

• What I need to know SPECIFICALLY is the difference in materials, and fit. not so much about opinions with no facts. I want to hear apples to apples WHY the difference? Are the frames machined out of a block of GOLD? if so what purity? I hear about different types of sights! I don't care about sights! I can shoot straight and extremely accurate with whatever sights are on whichever firearm.... It should be the reason for a two thousand dollar difference. Triggers, again, I know how everybody has to hum and hah about a Trigger! Great! Fine! still, I can hit anything at 20 yards fine without writing a novel about a Trigger! Still does not justify thousands of dollars difference... I realize most is hand fitting.... That makes sense!!!!!!,,, Is it the exact same MATERIALS? what makes cheap parts different from expensive ones? Is it the parts are not quite the right shape and size? Out of Spec? OR are they softer cheaper materials? Ideally it would be nice to see a side by side comparison between and RIA vs say a Colt! If all the difference is some trigger work and sights, and some aftermarket plastic grips that everyone makes a to do about then I cant imagine cost being thousands of dollars. If there is a difference in the Steel, materials, hardness, machined out of solid billet, etc.... then that I can understand,,,.

Hope I am making some sense. Hopefully not rambling on too much.
Thanks in advance.

[kcstott]

Well if you haven't figured out that you are paying a good portion of your high end pistol bill as marketing then you need to look at things again.

Not saying they are ripping anyone off but there is a lot to be said about paying for a name.

that said High end parts or pistols usually come with a pretty good warranty and reputation.

Materials will not add to much in terms of cost unless you factor in things like the process to get it to a frame. Casting are relatively inexpensive, Forgings are tremendously more costly to produce, Then you have wire EDM, Laser cut, and hand fit all play a part in cost.

see none of the high end makers make a MilSpec pistol and if they did it would be a pile of junk to most people use to shooting there high end stuff.

And every one of them fits there parts a little differently, based on what they learned as professional pistol smiths

[klewan]

It's Pride of Ownership with high end guns. There are differences in fit and finish, but not enough for most peeps to pony up the cash for them. You're not going to find a tangible difference that is justification for the higher price; unless you really bought into the marketing....it's like the over-under shotgun guys, they spend a lot of time waiting in line for their turn, so they spend it looking at each other's guns. So you want a really nice one. Why do you want that high end gun?

[spamsucker]

materials quality
process ordering (heat-treat then machine or machine then heat treat for example)
fit, finish, durability.

The above for the most part. It's just like rifle optics or hot rod engines. The first 10% of the cost gets you 90% of the function and about 50% of the form. As you apply more and more money you get less and less upgrade to what you had before.


with scopes it's sorta like this:
$20 optic: Don't use it on a gun. It won't work like you think it should. It's a target to shoot at, not something to shoot at targets with. Fuzzy, color separation, no tracking, can't tell the moon has mountains if you look at it with this level of glass.

$100 optic, ok well it's technically a scope but probably doesn't last long or work exceptionally well at beyond conversational distances. Unsuitable for looking at the moon in any great detail. Big chromatic abberation, fuzz, etc.. Can't even tell jupiter is a planet not a star. Most people plink with this level of scope. Five times the cost of a piece of actual trash but it works-ish.

$500 optic: Five times the cost but starting to work pretty well. All the bits do what they should and the clarity is good enough for a useful look at the moon. Low chromatic abberation, good focus but not perfect. Won't pick out stripes on jupiter but can tell 2 close moons apart. This is good stuff but nowhere near the best. Most will never need more. 5 times the cost of something just basically functional.

$2500 optic, everything works perfectly, adjusts like a scientific instrument and it's clear enough to see stripes on jupiter and very small craters on the moon. Five times the cost of something really quite decent and what it picks up is something almost nobody actually needs but which will help everyone to a point.

How about engines (just for arguments sake, numbers are for demonstration, not a reflection of any rule in reality)

$1000 V8: Well, it's a v8 and might make 250hp or so but you're not going to win any races with it and it's not built especially tightly. it'll power your car for 100k miles if you don't ever beat on it and take care of it.

$3000 V8: Might just put down some decent power but it's still not a race engine. Think 350hp or so. It'll take some modest whipping, even the occasional run down the strip and probably give you 100k miles and not need major repair if you take decent care of it.

$10000 V8: This will put down the power and should last and take a decent whipping as more or less day to day fare. Think 550hp and it will probably stand up to being pushed really hard on a not-rare basis. It will lose performance quickly if you do not take great care of it.

The high end of spend gets tiny bits of improvement but in many things those tiny gains are the things that separate the competition winners from the 2nd placers.

I don't think there's a lot of cause for anyone to think of buying a 1911 more expensive than a pedestrian Springfield loaded package. Those that do have cause really really do have it.

[tophatjones]

Imho, the reason why custom 1911s cost in the thousands of dollars comes down to: The many hours of highly trained/skilled/experienced manual labor required to produce the best fit and finish. Materials account for a smaller percentage of the bill, but if you're paying big bucks for the best fit and finish, you might as well get the best materials as well.

Does everyone need a custom 1911? Absolutely not. But not everyone collects fine art either. I consider custom 1911s to be more similar to art or heirlooms than utility items.

[tophatjones]

To answer your question about Para vs RIA casting. The Sarco guy could be saying the RIA is better for everyone because it doesn't require finish machining. Castings are good to go for utilitarian 1911 frames. However, I'd stick to forged slides even if the frame is cast.

[350skylark]

I agree with what most people are saying, you also have to think of the value of diminishing return. Is a $3000 gun really $2000 more gun then a $1000 one? Once you get into the higher end stuff every little detail makes a difference. You might not see much difference between low and mid level guns. Mid level to high end might be different. I have not handled a full custom gun but have gone from a rock island, to a Springfield loaded, to an mc operator and have noticed a gradual improvement between them. Some day i hope to own a nice WC or Les Baer.

[kcstott]

I can tell you a $4000 WC is built like fine watch, everything on it is solid and smooth. Now is it worth it??? Well thats up to you.

[Euphoria526]

Can't say much myself. My first any only 1911 (currently) is an Sti.
Love it not loose at all and very accurate. Love my Spartan.

[Rat1911]

Thanks All,
What I am trying to figure out is a Pile of Parts from Sarco verses a Pile a parts from Browning? OR Whomever?
IE:

• 1911 Para Casting rough compared to a Caspian Frames. Besides the obvious that the Caspian Frame is finished. Are there any differences between the Material (Alloys)? If both frames were unfinished castings and had to be finished which one would you buy? OR would you prefer to machine a frame from a solid block of billet?

• I read everywhere how forged castings don't wear as well as machined? OR Carry pieces are made with lighter weight alloys and sacrifice durability? I just cant buy into this nonsense chatter. ANY carry pistol I would own I want durability first and foremost. Doesn't make a lot of sense to drag around a pistol that doesn't wear well or eats itself apart? I don't really believe any of this which is why I come to you guys

• I cant imagine why a finished PARA Cast Frame would be less quality than a finished Caspian Frame UNLESS they were made from different alloys and materials????

• I don't care about weight. I live in the Northwest avid fishing and hunter so I have to carry heavy both in caliber and weight. I see many a River Fisher carrying a 45ACP and no Bear Spray. Uuhhgg...

• Triggers, seems to me to be another scam??? I realize the importance of a good trigger but that's not what I am inquiring about? If you were a gunsmith and had the choice between two trigger kits that LOOK exactly the same, made from the SAME materials, metals, ect... AND look the same as standard 1911 trigger parts. WHY would I spend forty to ninety dollars more other than the fact that the original trigger group needs a "Little Hand Fitting?" I purchased P/N CS208 and P/N CS0211 from Brownells, I am staring at these parts and there are NO DIFFERENCES other than forty dollars higher (CS0211 ). I have checked the parts, SAME Hardness as STOCK 1911 Parts, Same Material,(Alloy).

• My question is if someone can build and machine a 1911 from a block of billet, make or use any parts, why would they bother with spending or throwing money on high priced parts that are essentially the same as stock parts that may require hand fitting? I would understand if its the average joe blow with no gunsmithing experience but I am referring to the gunsmithing guys and the parts they use? I don't care about name brand. I can make my own parts out of billet. The problem is should I? Tell me which parts I can use that are the cheapest but the same materials to use if only need to be hand fitted? machined? or otherwise? If I were to make and machine every single part out of 4140, stainless, hand fitted and polished the only difference between mine and lets say a Colt Custom would be "A Missing Name"? What are the parts a Gunsmith would use to make the highest quality 1911 for himself using an unfinished Cast Frame or one Machined from Billet?

I guess I should also add is the only reason I have any interest in the 1911 45ACP is the fact that it is still be carried by military, ammo is everywhere and plentiful, and parts availability. Its not my favorite carry for personal defense or otherwise. Any caliber smaller than 45acp is not a consideration for me.

[klewan]

If you find a NORINCO 1911, you'd see a lot of what you're asking. Chinese gun from mid '90s, really impressed the gun guys. They were bought to use the frame and slide in race guns and other customs. Had really good steel, accurately made, some thought it better than the base Colt model.

[Rat1911]

Hi Klewan,
You know, I actually shot a Norinco 1911 many years ago. It was a Range Gun, . I was comparing it to a Sig 9mm. I was not able to hit the side of a Barn with that 9mm. Terrible... But, I tried to buy the Norinco 1911. Guy at the range said it was a POS and why anyone would want a Norinco? I wish I had bought that. It was the most accurate shooting Pistol I had ever shot. With exception of my 44mag. I was super impressed with it. Oh Well, another lesson learned...

[tophatjones]

I'll try and answer your questions, but please keep in mind it's all just an opinion. The only thing that matters is that you're happy with what you paid for.

Thanks All,
What I am trying to figure out is a Pile of Parts from Sarco verses a Pile a parts from Browning? OR Whomever?

I bought a Sarco parts kit many years ago, but I wouldn't buy any parts kit again. This is because I like to have control over features and quality vs price. Not only do you not get to choose parts with the Sacro kit, it also had poor quality materials and out of spec parts. Perhaps they've improved or perhaps another manufacturer has better parts, but to me a kit is a gamble. Note: although I like to buy each part, one exception is the fcg (sear/hammer related parts), which I don't mind buying prefit (like from Cylinder and Slide).

IE:

• 1911 Para Casting rough compared to a Caspian Frames. Besides the obvious that the Caspian Frame is finished. Are there any differences between the Material (Alloys)? If both frames were unfinished castings and had to be finished which one would you buy? OR would you prefer to machine a frame from a solid block of billet?

I don't have either of these frames, but the differences should be small between castings from reputable companies. Reputable companies probably have their casting process refined enough to avoid trapped air bubbles, etc. After that, the most important thing is that everything is in spec. I'd prefer forged>billet>cast and of the two, probably Caspain>Para

• I read everywhere how forged castings don't wear as well as machined? OR Carry pieces are made with lighter weight alloys and sacrifice durability? I just cant buy into this nonsense chatter. ANY carry pistol I would own I want durability first and foremost. Doesn't make a lot of sense to drag around a pistol that doesn't wear well or eats itself apart? I don't really believe any of this which is why I come to you guys

It's either forged or cast; what's a forged casting? When they say alloy, they usually mean aluminum alloy, which is lighter weight than a steel alloy but also has less tensile/yield strength than steel. If you want durability, get forged parts. For the frame, I'm going to guess that 99% of shooters won't shoot enough to find the difference in strength between a forged frame and a cast one. We're talking about shooting 100K rounds and up. If you don't care about the extra cost and want the durability anyway, go forged. Just a guess: even the aluminum alloy frame could probably go 10K-15K.

• I cant imagine why a finished PARA Cast Frame would be less quality than a finished Caspian Frame UNLESS they were made from different alloys and materials????

Machining work could be worse, who knows? As long as the frame is made by a reputable manufacturer, you should be good to go. Also, measure your frame to make sure everything is in spec.

• I don't care about weight. I live in the Northwest avid fishing and hunter so I have to carry heavy both in caliber and weight. I see many a River Fisher carrying a 45ACP and no Bear Spray. Uuhhgg...

A good belt helps a lot with the 1911.

• Triggers, seems to me to be another scam??? I realize the importance of a good trigger but that's not what I am inquiring about? If you were a gunsmith and had the choice between two trigger kits that LOOK exactly the same, made from the SAME materials, metals, ect... AND look the same as standard 1911 trigger parts. WHY would I spend forty to ninety dollars more other than the fact that the original trigger group needs a "Little Hand Fitting?" I purchased P/N CS208 and P/N CS0211 from Brownells, I am staring at these parts and there are NO DIFFERENCES other than forty dollars higher (CS0211 ). I have checked the parts, SAME Hardness as STOCK 1911 Parts, Same Material,(Alloy).

Custom trigger fitting is even more expensive. Looking at CS208 and CS0211, it seems the only difference is blued vs stainless steel parts. It's probably not worth the extra, but you could email C&S and ask them about the price difference. I really like the C&S kits, btw. Ultimately buy what makes you happy. A good shooter will shoot just fine with a creepy gritty trigger but would meet his/her potential with a finely tuned custom trigger group. For self defense, it really doesn't matter, just don't go too light.

• My question is if someone can build and machine a 1911 from a block of billet, make or use any parts, why would they bother with spending or throwing money on high priced parts that are essentially the same as stock parts that may require hand fitting? I would understand if its the average joe blow with no gunsmithing experience but I am referring to the gunsmithing guys and the parts they use? I don't care about name brand. I can make my own parts out of billet. The problem is should I? Tell me which parts I can use that are the cheapest but the same materials to use if only need to be hand fitted? machined? or otherwise? If I were to make and machine every single part out of 4140, stainless, hand fitted and polished the only difference between mine and lets say a Colt Custom would be "A Missing Name"? What are the parts a Gunsmith would use to make the highest quality 1911 for himself using an unfinished Cast Frame or one Machined from Billet?

If you can build your own parts, then do it. It'd be a lot of fun and a great learning experience. You will still need to do hand fitting though, maybe not as much?

I guess I should also add is the only reason I have any interest in the 1911 45ACP is the fact that it is still be carried by military, ammo is everywhere and plentiful, and parts availability. Its not my favorite carry for personal defense or otherwise. Any caliber smaller than 45acp is not a consideration for me.

Well, the 1911 is on its way out. I absolutely love the 1911 design and love working on them, but the newer designs have alot of advantages especially in manufacturing (save $$ for one). If you're not going to carry it or use it for self defense, absolutely try making one from scratch, then post about it. It'd be an awesome adventure for you and us.

[tophatjones]

Also, if you don't have them already, consider buying the fantastic Jerry Khunhausen 1911 books, Vol 1 and 2.

[klewan]

Hi Klewan,
You know, I actually shot a Norinco 1911 many years ago. It was a Range Gun, . I was comparing it to a Sig 9mm. I was not able to hit the side of a Barn with that 9mm. Terrible... But, I tried to buy the Norinco 1911. Guy at the range said it was a POS and why anyone would want a Norinco? I wish I had bought that. It was the most accurate shooting Pistol I had ever shot. With exception of my 44mag. I was super impressed with it. Oh Well, another lesson learned...

I have this blessing/curse that I can find out something about a person I've never met by just being me. What are the chances you shot a pistol that has been unavailable for over 20 years and really liked it? But it was common knowledge the NORINCO was a really nice piece. Too bad you didn't buy one back then, it was like $300 when the cheapest Colt was $600...