Help me pick a class

[chunger]

Hello,

I seem to take a trip out with the wife every year to take some sort of shooting course, and we've always had a bunch of fun in the process while always learning a ton. I'm looking for some recommendations or 1st hand reports of some of the feasible options.

We started out shortly after we got married taking a simple 4 day handgun course at that place near Vegas. . . this was coming from no firearms experience. . . then, the wife got to go to Babes with Bullets in Piru prior to the steel challenge with Lisa Munson and Kay Miculek. . . it was increadible. I was very jealous. She came back wanting to make things go "ding". Then, we went back to that place in Vegas because we had discovered this thing called OLL and needed to spend another 4 days learning how to shoot rifles. In the meantime, I've been meeting up with a local AMOK! group to learn knife fighting and have been fortunate enough to go to a couple of Bay Area seminars with Tom in the last couple of years. Much effort has been spent on knife because that is what I can carry almost all the time.

At any rate, we're thinking about taking another trip somewhere and I've come up with a few possibilities.

1. TFTT "Two Man Team Tactics" course in LA Aug. 18-21. I've not heard much about Tactical Firearms Training Team, and do not know much beyond what's written in the course description and recommendations on this forum, but practically speaking, this seems to be a very useful course for a couple to develop a more cohesive and effective tool set utilizing both pistol and rifle. ($650 x 2) + (600 x .223) + (900 x 9mm)

http://www.tftt.com/training/tmt/

2. Tactical Response - "Fighting Rifle" in Camden, TN June 21-22 w/ wife and then "High Risk Civilian Contractor" June 23-27 It seems there is a cross-pollination between tactical response and Suarez International's curriculum. .. which I kindof want to get a bit of. This class or courses would cost more though due to travel and tuition, but might be offset a bit because of the supplied "team housing".

3. Suarez International "Point Shooting Progressions" June 21-22 in LA. The curriculum looks outstanding. I have no idea how they're going to cram all that into 2 days. . . plus, 1800 rounds per person? Yee haww. . .. fire up the dillon. I'm gonna be crankin' 'til my arms fall off.

4. USSA "Competition Hangun 110" Aug 22-24 in Tulsa, OK. I've been poling around trying to figure out a way to get some face time w/ a M/GM level shooter to get me started on the right foot in IPSC, but haven't been able to get hooked up. This seems like a good way to go, and the facility seems absolutely fantastic. The course cost seems downright reasonable at $475 x2 but the flight/car rental/hotel will escalate the cost significantly.

I guess those are the front-runners I'm kindof thinking about. There are probably other options, and I'd love to hear about them along with experiences with any of these organizations listed above. Of particular concern to me is the avoidance of getting into a boot camp. Our experiences with AMOK! and Frontsight and of course Babes with Bullets has been very positive for the wife. Tactical Response lays out very clearly in their website that they intend to train everyone who can be safe and will work with you - even an 11 year old girl. If there are things we need to work on prior to the class, we can certainly work on them (ie., physical conditioning, shooting tune-up, equipment setup). What we don't need is to get into a class that caters only to "high speed" hardcore operators and frowns on everyone who doesn't look/act the part. I'm very lucky to have a wife who humors me enough to actually come out and play (although i did trick her into the last one w/ that pink OLL). Don't want to toss in a sour experience if I can help it. At the same time, we've learned some skills in our training adventures and want to continue to get pushed into higher levels of tactical functionality. . . which is why I'm looking at courses with a bit of challenging material that goes a little beyond static shooting.

[Roger Phillips]

3. Suarez International "Point Shooting Progressions" June 21-22 in LA. The curriculum looks outstanding. I have no idea how they're going to cram all that into 2 days. . . plus, 1800 rounds per person? Yee haww. . .. fire up the dillon. I'm gonna be crankin' 'til my arms fall off.

Hello, a little biased here but what the heck!

I am able to cram that all in due to many years of studying instructors on how best to organize a course. The course is definitely a challenge for both the student and myself. The pace is fast yet we do not blow by anything until it is ingrained by the student. I lecture on what needs to be lectured on and I do not waste time with stories and needless yammering. The course is set up in a building block approach....everything is connected to what came before it and what comes after it.

This course was designed by a student (me) for a student. This is the course that I would want to take.

There are many reviews of this course over at Warrior Talk Forums if you are interested. There are also at least 30 articles of mine over there. These articles will give you a very good idea what I teach and where I am coming from. But you do have to register to see them.

Let me know if you would like any more information on this course.

Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor

[randy]

If you live in So Cal then ITTS has a great class. If you want to learn IPSC shooting then www.taranbutler.com

Those two guys are tops in their fields.

[chunger]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for responding to my inquiry. There are so many things I need to learn, but I guess they break down into 2 broad categories:

1. Rudiments of firearms combatitives. (How to get the required hits on target as fast as possible with freedom of movement)

2. Tactical "intelligence" . . .or . . . knowing what to look for and how to respond and proactively position myself into progressively more advantageous positions in relation to my adversaries. .. both as a single entity and as a team. . . at all ranges of engagement and under all pressure levels.

I guess from a skills acquisition perspective, it's kindof like the chicken and the egg. If I am strong in #2 (tactics), I might be able to put myself into a highly advantageous position and find that I do not have enought #1 (rudiments) to get hits on target. For instance, in knife-fighting, I've been in situations in sparring or dueling where I got myself into a great position and have control of my opponent's knife arm, but do not have an appropriate disarm or take-down trained in for this particular angle I'm presently in to finish the fight and cannot flow. And it goes the other way as well. . . if you can hit anything anywhere with speed, but my opponent drops an anvil on my head from above because he sneaked upstairs and got position on me, it reveals a deficiency in tactics that should be addressed. Greater skills in tactics reveal the need for greater skills in the fundamentals. . . likewise, greater fundamental skills pushes you to consider new tactical possibilities; and it's just hard to figure out which one to work on 1st.

It seems the point progressions course is primarily fundamentals course that builds the ability to hit from all angles under all pressure zones while moving. And a tactics course as it integrates movement with a purpose.

There are tons of items in the course description that are incredibly interesting to me including:

quick fire (driving the gun)
introduction to controlled movement and sighted fire
accurate shooting with dynamic movement

I do well to have a structured and repetitive/compounding course when learning something new and I don't think I've had the chance to have that in firearms yet. An intensive, focussed course that puts 1800 rounds down range sounds like a great option. .. particularly without a lot of travel expense.

[chunger]

Randy,

Taran Butler was one of the 1st guys I tried to get in contact with to get some face time particularly because he does 3 gun. I tried emailing several times and using the web form for lessons request but hear nothing back on all attempts, so I gave up after a while because I didn't want to be a nuisance. I figured the top tier GM's who don't have teaching as a primary income stream don't have time for the little guy who's starting out, so I'd find someone who IS interested in showing me the ropes.

[Roger Phillips]

Fluid Situational Response

In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT was just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677 and firearms instructor Gabe Suarez. They would write posts of their real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations. As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the second type of response, the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters while training with Gabe, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. Many of these students actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level fluid situational response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the "fight continuum" and what Gabe calls "progression of the fight." I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law may apply to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my fluid situational response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes in your position in the OODA loop, are all dependent on your position in the reactionary curve.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubushi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using target focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, ballistic effect, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the OODA loop in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. A surprised response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your surprised response. Flight may override fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone while drawing your weapon, move to cover if near, put hits on the adversary using target focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your fluid situational response you will go places that you never thought were possible, where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The fluid situational response helps answer that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your fluid situational response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.

[Ugly Dwarf]

OK, so this post is of no benefit to this thread , but I can't resist saying you are one lucky guy to have a wife who want's to take these classes.

My wife grew up shooting and still likes to shoot with me now and again, but she has NO interest in going out to Front Sight (I assume that's the "place near Vegas" you're talking about) with me.

Sounds like you've got some great class options lined up. Have fun.

[LCAZES]

Seems to me that you should first have a really good idea about what you want to take away from such a course. I see two separate disciplines outlined here. Competitive USPSA handgun vs. Tactical. I can only really speak to competition shooting. I have taken my share of tactical courses but am far from knowledgeable enough to stear you to one. If you want to get started in USPSA, you really don't need an intensive course like Taran or Matt Burkett teach. In fact, until you have shot some matches I wouldnt suggest it. Take the new shooters course with TASC at chabot, we offer the best in the area, and get some matches under your belt before spending money on expensive courses. PM me if you'd like to discuss it further.

Larry

[BamBam-31]

Mr. Phillips,

I'll be attending the July class at Burro. Hope it's all you say it is!

[chunger]

Hi Larry,

You make a good point. . . there really are 2 separate things I'm interested in and I have a lot to learn in both the game and the practical. In the tactical side, the motivations are simple. I want myself and my wife to be able to handle ourselves well if it comes to bullets flying. . . or violent confrontations in general. This is the primary reason we have started learning to shoot. Now, understanding that the true likelihood of that ever occurring is very slim particularly given proper, sensible life procedures and precautions, I come to the game. It is something that I enjoy and would like to do and become relatively decent at.

Everybody's learning process is different. I personally benefit greatly when starting out on a learning process (in areas where I am not naturally gifted like shooting or for that matter any physical sport-ish thing) by having someone show me the fundamentals. For instance, I tried to play basketball in school from junior high to mid high school in a lot of "matches". But, it wasn't until my parents sent me to a 2 week intensive camp that I actually learned how to learn. Someone showed me fundamentals:

the kinematics of shooting. . . line up the bones in your legs and arms and wrist and fingers this way. If you do so, the ball is forced to fly straight.

They showed me the most efficient footwork to transition from dribbling to a jump shot.

They showed me how to get to gain and maintain position to recieve a pass.

They showed me how to move when I didn't have the ball and how to see the passing lanes/opportunities.

They showed me how to set a pick.

They showed me drills to improve ball handling.

They showed me how to defend and box out for rebounding.

This is not to say I became a great player, but I learned how to improve and diagnose or break down problems into correctable steps. If my shot is missing, I can trace it down through the fundamentals to some particular issue and work on that. If I am losing in a game, I have a framework to understand what deficiencies my opponent is taking advantage of and try to make corrections. I was able to become a contributor and I remember these lessons and lo and behold, the knowledge is transferable! Until I got this hands on one-on-one information, I was just running around throwing the ball in the air. When I am rusty now and haven't been on the court in a while, I know what to do and how long it will take to get myself back to a competitive place because I know how to practice.

This is what I'm looking for in shooting. I want to get with someone who is good at teaching and knows what they're doing to show me the fundamentals of the game from the ground up with explanations of why it works the way it does. Get appropriate and meaningful drills to tune up those nuts and bolts. Let me know what to watch for, how to get my index, grip, reload, draw, stance, trigger control, movement, focus proper to where I can have meaningful practice. To get that instant feedback. . . ah. . . I missed, well, you missed because such and such was out of alignment and your focus was on such and such instead of on this. I can go shoot a lot of matches and have a great time doing it, but I know that for me, if I can get some focussed, structured learning before I go to town with matches (which require one to put an aweful lot of fundamental techniques together and flow), I will be able to extract at least a magnitude more actual retainable skill per bullet used ($$) if I have some focussed training prior to diving in. This is just the way I learn. I'm not asking for a magic elixer to be good. . . I need to be shown where the road is and how to stay on it.

In knifing, the AMOK people have been extremely helpful in showing me what the nuts and bolts of combatatives w/ 2 armed/ 2 legged upright walking beings entails, and I am starting to have a framework in which to improve my skills. Here is a technique, here are all of the possible positions from which this technique (or any technique) can be utilized. Here is how to work out all of these angles. I work on them, and then after a while, discover that they become accessible subconsciously and start to "come out" appropriately and effectively in full speed dueling against uncooperative opponents. I've been shown a path and know where I am on that path and know where I would like to go to become a more complete knifer

This is what I'm looking for in firearms training. I would love to find a local person who can spend the time and the rounds to teach me the fundamentals. If not a local person, I'm willing to travel and get the training, but I have to do it within a constrained, realistic budget. . .or, wait until I have saved up enough to do it. I've put out some feelers but it's hard unless you have some kind of private range for someone to step up and say, sure. Let's do it.

Unfortunately, because I work on Sundays I have not been able to get to a match regularly, but I have made it out to a rifle match (only match on the Sunday I was off), and despite all of the meltdowns that come with the 1st match, managed to get 3rd place. People said it did not look like a 1st match at all. I thought I screwed it all up, but was shocked when the results came in. This indicates that some things in my training, dry practice, and preparations are coming together correctly, but I know what I don't know and am looking for a way to figure it out. Incidentally, rifle is coming together much faster for me than pistol for some reason. I have never yet been able to put a pistol stage together clean. (all A's at a non-laughable speed). . . . because I don't have the fundamentals.

I missed Matt Burkett at RRGC because we had out of town guests that weekend, and have been kicking myself ever since. He also has been non-responsive to inquiries about private $e$$ion$.

Babes with Bullets seems to be the best thing going, but it's only for girls. . . oh well. I'm seriously thinking about heading out to Roger's class and somewhere in a structured 1800 rounds of focussed drills, I will learn something that will help me put the pieces together and start to flow w/ a pistol . .. . hopefully. I think my total round count thus far is only about 4,000.

My bullets came in the mail today from Montana Gold. . . better get started making ammo. . .

Seems to me that you should first have a really good idea about what you want to take away from such a course. I see two separate disciplines outlined here. Competitive USPSA handgun vs. Tactical. I can only really speak to competition shooting. I have taken my share of tactical courses but am far from knowledgeable enough to stear you to one. If you want to get started in USPSA, you really don't need an intensive course like Taran or Matt Burkett teach. In fact, until you have shot some matches I wouldnt suggest it. Take the new shooters course with TASC at chabot, we offer the best in the area, and get some matches under your belt before spending money on expensive courses. PM me if you'd like to discuss it further.

Larry

[Roger Phillips]

Mr. Phillips,

I'll be attending the July class at Burro. Hope it's all you say it is!

Please just call me Roger.

All I have done is integrated the old with the new. I have a very solid foundation in Coopers Modern Techniques, but I also recognize the combat proven skill sets that were brought to us by the old timers. Guys Like Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Jelly Bryce, Bill Jordon, and Col. Askins have a knowledge base and experience level equal too, if not well beyond any of the more modern teachings. The seamless integration of the old and the new is really a no brainer when we look at the context of the fight. We have the older combat proven skill sets linked in with the "science" of the more modern teachings. This really gives us the best of both worlds.

When I started on this path of discovery I was concerned whether this seamless integration was possible.....let alone effective or efficient. What I have found is that it is not only doable....but that it really high lighted and clarified the mental aspect of the fight. This course has really taken on a life of it's own......a life of intertwined skill sets and the mental aspect of the fight.

[Roger Phillips]

chunger,

You have a very analytical mind. You are a perfect example of the type of people that seek out my training. I will tell you the how's, the why's, and the where's. That is what I do.

I was taught by some real "just do this" guys, and it worked out well. But, I believe that a more thorough understanding leads to a greater confidence and a greater confidence leads to a higher skill level and a higher skill level leads to a better understanding of the mental aspect of the fight.

This all adds up to a much more well rounded and versatile civilian defender.

I hope to make you aquaintance, Roger

[futureExpat]

Hello,

I seem to take a trip out with the wife every year to take some sort of shooting course, and we've always had a bunch of fun in the process while always learning a ton. I'm looking for some recommendations or 1st hand reports of some of the feasible options.

We started out shortly after we got married taking a simple 4 day handgun course at that place near Vegas. . . this was coming from no firearms experience. . . then, the wife got to go to Babes with Bullets in Piru prior to the steel challenge with Lisa Munson and Kay Miculek. . . it was increadible. I was very jealous. She came back wanting to make things go "ding". Then, we went back to that place in Vegas because we had discovered this thing called OLL and needed to spend another 4 days learning how to shoot rifles. In the meantime, I've been meeting up with a local AMOK! group to learn knife fighting and have been fortunate enough to go to a couple of Bay Area seminars with Tom in the last couple of years. Much effort has been spent on knife because that is what I can carry almost all the time.

At any rate, we're thinking about taking another trip somewhere and I've come up with a few possibilities.

1. TFTT "Two Man Team Tactics" course in LA Aug. 18-21. I've not heard much about Tactical Firearms Training Team, and do not know much beyond what's written in the course description and recommendations on this forum, but practically speaking, this seems to be a very useful course for a couple to develop a more cohesive and effective tool set utilizing both pistol and rifle. ($650 x 2) + (600 x .223) + (900 x 9mm)

http://www.tftt.com/training/tmt/

2. Tactical Response - "Fighting Rifle" in Camden, TN June 21-22 w/ wife and then "High Risk Civilian Contractor" June 23-27 It seems there is a cross-pollination between tactical response and Suarez International's curriculum. .. which I kindof want to get a bit of. This class or courses would cost more though due to travel and tuition, but might be offset a bit because of the supplied "team housing".

3. Suarez International "Point Shooting Progressions" June 21-22 in LA. The curriculum looks outstanding. I have no idea how they're going to cram all that into 2 days. . . plus, 1800 rounds per person? Yee haww. . .. fire up the dillon. I'm gonna be crankin' 'til my arms fall off.

4. USSA "Competition Hangun 110" Aug 22-24 in Tulsa, OK. I've been poling around trying to figure out a way to get some face time w/ a M/GM level shooter to get me started on the right foot in IPSC, but haven't been able to get hooked up. This seems like a good way to go, and the facility seems absolutely fantastic. The course cost seems downright reasonable at $475 x2 but the flight/car rental/hotel will escalate the cost significantly.

I guess those are the front-runners I'm kindof thinking about. There are probably other options, and I'd love to hear about them along with experiences with any of these organizations listed above. Of particular concern to me is the avoidance of getting into a boot camp. Our experiences with AMOK! and Frontsight and of course Babes with Bullets has been very positive for the wife. Tactical Response lays out very clearly in their website that they intend to train everyone who can be safe and will work with you - even an 11 year old girl. If there are things we need to work on prior to the class, we can certainly work on them (ie., physical conditioning, shooting tune-up, equipment setup). What we don't need is to get into a class that caters only to "high speed" hardcore operators and frowns on everyone who doesn't look/act the part. I'm very lucky to have a wife who humors me enough to actually come out and play (although i did trick her into the last one w/ that pink OLL). Don't want to toss in a sour experience if I can help it. At the same time, we've learned some skills in our training adventures and want to continue to get pushed into higher levels of tactical functionality. . . which is why I'm looking at courses with a bit of challenging material that goes a little beyond static shooting.

I just did the suarez def pistol skills class & looking to do TFTT.com class but hear that it is top notch & you need to be very familiar with handling a handgun.

I am looking to do one more "tactical" style class before i sign up with TFTT.

anyone have any suggestions?

I heard from one guy at the suarez class about a class/group in OC called C.A.D. or C.A.T.? any heard of it?

[chunger]

I'm about 90% sure now we'll go ahead and attend the point shooting progressions. I am liking the idea of a more focussed technical course rather than a "catch all" tactical course. At 1800 rounds minimum, I feel like this course is designed give me a chance to work on some of my primary weak points. . . . rapid shooting, and shooting on the move.

Depending on how the "play money" is doing later on in the summer, we might consider the TFTT team tactics course, but from the previous post, I think greater confidence in gun handling will be helpful prior to taking a course with unknown pre-req's dealing heavily in tactics. Try to set ourselve up to succeed and get good benefit from the classes we take instead of be overwhelmed.

Well, my bullets came. Time to get crankin' on the 550. Gotta pick up a couple thousand more 9mm too for the wife.

[chunger]

Looking forward to the Point Shooting Progressions class this weekend! Gotta go load 1000 more 9mm for the wife.