Tactical Shotgun training?

[Bert Gamble]

I am wondering about great tactical shotgun training. I have been to the 4 Day Defensive class at FS and a 1 day class with Gray Ops. I loved them both and think the training was excellent. I was able to get DG at FS but cannot go to the advanced class because I can't DG the handgun. I don't think they really want to do advanced classes anyway. Their bread and butter is the basic courses and I don't blame them for making it extremely difficult to attend advanced courses. I just wish they would be a little more honest about their reason for changing the requirements.

I really love the shotgun and consider it my "Go to" weapon and would like to get even better with it.

I am considering the 5 day combo course at Gunsite that is 3 days of basic and 2 days of advanced skills. Have any of you ever been to this?

I would also be interested in your opinions on other schools. I like the idea of at least 3-5 days of training so no 1 day classes please.

[LCU1670]

You are correct, I don't know why FS made those changes. Good luck with your training.

[ZombieTactics]

It seems like Gunsite might be the next best "step", for lack of a better term.

[GM_77]

Have never taken from TFTT but heard they were legit. A couple of PSD friends recommended them.

http://www.tftt.com/TFTT_Shotgun.htm

ITTS has the experience and background.

http://www.internationaltactical.com/shotgun_b.html

ITTS Shotgun III
ITTS Shotgun II

I don't know what it takes to DG at Frontsite but all advanced courses seem to want you to transition to handgun at some point so that is just a heads up.

[mixicus]

Where are you located? Are you willing to travel for the class? There maybe some top notch training in your area from local or traveling instructors.

Did I read your post right...you need to be DG in handgun to go to an advanced shotgun class at Front Sight?

[hermosabeach]

Front Sight sells a lot of memberships
The DG hurdle is to limit the people in the advanced classes where instructors make more. They also want more serious students in the advanced classes

The classes move faster and they want your basics solid

TFTT and ITTS are both great programs

Also look at shooters-edge.com as they bring in big name instructors and you have 10-12 students with the one instructor.
The 2013 schedule is not yet posted. http://www.shooters-edge.com/

All three are in Los Angeles

[hermosabeach]

Also Phil Rappagna (sp?)

http://www.trs-usa.org

http://www.trs-usa.org/Civilian_Training/civilian_training.html

I took one of his Gunfighting in Urban Structures- great class for fighting in your home with a pistol and flashlight

[Bert Gamble]

Where are you located? Are you willing to travel for the class? There maybe some top notch training in your area from local or traveling instructors.

Did I read your post right...you need to be DG in handgun to go to an advanced shotgun class at Front Sight?

You did read the post right. It is now a requirement to DG the handgun to be able to attend the Advanced Shotgun course. If I had been able to attend the Advanced Shotgun right after DGing the 4 day, I would have been grandfathered in, but no such luck.

When I went to FS the first time, the requirement for moving up was shooting "Graduate". Of course being my first time, I didn't make it. My second trip was better and I shot Graduate, only to find out that the rules had been changed and now Distinguished Graduate was required.

After several more attempts, and missing by 1 -3 points I sent an email to them asking why the requirement was changed so dramaticaly. I suggested that with many years of allowing Graduate shooters to attend advanced classes, it might be more appropriate to change the Graduate score from 13 to 34 to 13 to 20 and let them attend. This would ensure that the people moving on to the advanced classes would be highly proficiant, if not perfect.

What I got was a snide comment filled response suggesting that I wanted them to dumb down the training to suite my needs. I responded that dumbing down was far from what I wanted, and that I was only suggesting a compromise between what was done for years, and their new rules.

I got no further response.

I am still a fan of FS and think that they provide good training. I will still attend classes there with new shooters, but I am no longer interested in advancing my own skills there. I will simply pay for the training I want, and will receive it from those who want to teach me.

I will chack into the places listed. I hope to get a first hand review of Gunsite though. I talked to them yesterday and received a waiver that will allow me to attend their 350 Pistol without going through the basic course. I will then be able to go to the advanced class.

[hermosabeach]

FRont sight has been involved in litigation before

It stinks that they changed the rule on you after buying a membership

Do you have your membership contract and does it clarify what is needed to take the "advanced" class???

[Bert Gamble]

FRont sight has been involved in litigation before

It stinks that they changed the rule on you after buying a membership

Do you have your membership contract and does it clarify what is needed to take the "advanced" class???

I am not interested in making a stink about it. I understand that to do what they do for the price they are getting, some things have to be eliminated. I am happy to pay someone else for the training.

[MossbergMan]

Wait a minute....you have to DG a different weapons system to "advance" in another?
I understand the DG requirement to get into the same system's advanced program, but the focus on the handgun DG to get into a shotgun advanced class doesn't jell with me.
When I taught there you had to G or DG in the weapons system to go to the advanced course for that weapon.
I argued (un-successfully) with Naish to allow me to challenge the Shotgun Master test (I was surpassing the performance standards for SG Master) and was informed that I had to attain HG Combat Master before I could take the SG test. So it doesn't sound that far fetched that he may extend that line of thinking to regular courses. But really, what if one was physically incapable of attaining a HG master rating, but able to shoot the other weapons systems to master levels....you can't test for it because of the handgun. That sucks. I have to check on this one.....but seriously nothing surpises me out there anymore.
Two of my students took the 4 day HG class and DG'd the skills tests but were not credited with a DG because, get this.....they shot from level 3 retention holsters (duty gear) and not concealment on test day...WTF is that all about?

[Lugiahua]

Two of my students took the 4 day HG class and DG'd the skills tests but were not credited with a DG because, get this.....they shot from level 3 retention holsters (duty gear) and not concealment on test day...WTF is that all about?

I was told about the same before the qualification, so I put a light jacket over my Safariland duty holster to meet the requirement.

and yeah, I don't agree with the handgun requirement for the long gun course. So I took my advanced rifle/shotgun trainings in other schools that accept waivers.

[Bert Gamble]

Wait a minute....you have to DG a different weapons system to "advance" in another?
I understand the DG requirement to get into the same system's advanced program, but the focus on the handgun DG to get into a shotgun advanced class doesn't jell with me.
When I taught there you had to G or DG in the weapons system to go to the advanced course for that weapon.
I argued (un-successfully) with Naish to allow me to challenge the Shotgun Master test (I was surpassing the performance standards for SG Master) and was informed that I had to attain HG Combat Master before I could take the SG test. So it doesn't sound that far fetched that he may extend that line of thinking to regular courses. But really, what if one was physically incapable of attaining a HG master rating, but able to shoot the other weapons systems to master levels....you can't test for it because of the handgun. That sucks. I have to check on this one.....but seriously nothing surpises me out there anymore.
Two of my students took the 4 day HG class and DG'd the skills tests but were not credited with a DG because, get this.....they shot from level 3 retention holsters (duty gear) and not concealment on test day...WTF is that all about?

Yes sir, that is correct. The DG for handgun requirement in the advanced shotgun course is pretty new, less than a year. When I got DG in shotgun it was good enough, but before I could get into an advanced course and be "Grandfathered in", the requirement changed. Same thing happened when I shot G in the handgun. If I could have gone immediately to an advance class, I would be golden. Not one scheduled in time so the rule took effect with me just a G.

I will now switch schools to Gunsite. More expensive by a large margin, but willing to train the less than perfect among us.

Even with this irritation, I feel like I got good value form the $500 I spent on the FS membership. No regrets at all.

[ElDub1950]

for those of us not familiar with FS, what is 'DG'?

[Bert Gamble]

for those of us not familiar with FS, what is 'DG'?

DG stands for Distinguished Graduate. This is reserved for the candidate who is able to finish the skills assessment while dropping between 0 and 12 points.

G stands for "Graduate". This is reserved for the candidate who is able to finish the skills assessment while dropping between 13 and 34 points.


My contention was that if droping 34 points and being able to attend an advanced class has worked since inception, why increase the requirement all the way to 12 in one fell swoop? Why not change the grading system for Graduate to 13 to 20, or something like that?

If this change was made, the desire to increase the standard would be met, and many more students would be able to attend the classes.

I can tell you that if you are able to get through the test and only drop 20 points, you have mastered the skills. Might not be perfect, but certainly profiecient enough to learn more.

In my case, I am about as fast out of the holster as anyone. Instructors have commented that I have a lightning fast, smooth presentation and I have good trigger control and can get the proper sight picture. My first shot is always the first heard. I am also fast and accurate in the malfunction drills and never drop a point to that. My downfall is that I have a minor hand shake which causes an occasional shot to miss the small area we are required to hit. This causes occasional misses that are still soild hits, but are just slightly outside the line so it is a 3 point deduction. 5 of those and you are out of luck. I am normally in the 15 - 20 point down category.