Using a .22 Upper on AR15 for Carbine Course

[BlairB]

I am thinking of signing up for another carbine course and I was curious if anyone has ever run one of these courses using a dedicated .22 upper?

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of using my dedicated .22 upper vs. my normal 5.56 upper. It would be nice to save about $150 in ammo over the course, which could allow me to shoot more and do more courses. For most distances you see in a carbine course a .22lr would be more than accurate enough.

If I decided to do this I would probably change my .22 upper so it is identical to my 5.56, rather than its current configuration.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Pro's
-Cost
-No Bullet Button
-30 Round Mags
-Comparable accuracy at distance seen in carbine courses

Con's
-Less/different recoil than 5.56
-....?

Thanks!

[joelogic]

A training class is really just to learn and then your practice days is for muscle memory. During the class you want to learn and practice with the real deal and then pinch pennies at the range.

Con: 22LR reliability
Pro: You will be super proficient at malfunction drills.

If you are on a budget, just fire fewer rounds during the strings. Its what I do when I take a class with my SOCOM.

[scootle]

Pro's
-Cost
-No Bullet Button
-30 Round Mags
-Comparable accuracy at distance seen in carbine courses

Con's
-Less/different recoil than 5.56
-....?

Be careful... 30-round mags aren't exempt just because it's rimfire, but I'm sure you know that.

Clearing malfunctions on a rimfire will be a little different from a full-sized AR, and depending on the specific upper you run (and what ammo), you may or may not have a lot of malfunctions...

As you mentioned, the recoil profile will be completely different, which may influence the speed and method you use to drive the carbine around. One of the things that I miss with a rimfire setup (I have a 15-22) is the characteristic "sproing" sound when you hit an empty mag.... this is an important and subtle bit of muscle memory that is worth developing in training, imho.

There were a series of Rimfire Carbine classes run by LMS Defense a while back... here's one of the AARs (not mine) to give you an idea of how that might roll: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=363680

Regardless, as long as you check with your trainer ahead of time, I'm sure they will see if they can accommodate you, even if it means you end up running both a full-sized upper for some stuff and the rimfire for others. Good luck!

[gschoelles]

I have taught and attended classes in which some student chose to run a 22 for practice in their carbine and on the most part it worked out just fine. However, I don't think they felt they were participating as much or getting as much out of the class as others. IMHO this is only perceived, but at longer ranges it stood out greatly when there was 10 seconds (exaggerating) from bang to ping on the steel.

I'd say take both if you can, and have a great time.

[The Virus]

You're really just cheating yourself. If you are paying for instruction in the proficient use of a AR, some of the key points of the class will be recoil management, multiple shot strings while utilizing recoil management techniques, target transitions, malfunction drills etc

[CRTguns]

pretend your shooting a silenced .223

In almost every pistol and rifle class Ive taken, I've used, at least on some drills, .22lr guns.

You want the real deal for clearing drills, weak-side and transitions... but say there's some "snap shooting" or heads-up shooting on a signal- you'll burn up several mags here... use the .22.

perhaps asking the instructor of the class would be productive. See what he thinks.

[ramathorn]

Pros: You'll save money.
Cons: Everyone will talk crap about the cheap guy when you aren't looking.

Go big or go home. Cheap out at the range but train for real.

[ramathorn]

Or bring your 5.56 upper and just say pew-pew instead of pulling the trigger.

[Josh Jackson]

I do a lot of my personal training at home (yes I have a range at home) with my .22 uppers when I am focusing on weapons handling, or turns, ready ups, etc. It is a great way to get a short and cost effective training session in. Whenever I do this I try to end the session with a few drills of 5.56/ .223 because the recoil impulse is different. It is important that you set up your rimfire the same way as your centerfire so that there is as much consistency as possible when running them.

I see a few folks coming through classes that will switch back and forth between rimfire and full power depending upon the drills and I have seen a number of students successfully run a rimfire in carbine courses where most everyone else was shooting centerfire weapons. I would encourage you to have a solid foundation in using the carbine in its centerfire configuration first.

We have taught a number of Rimfire Carbine Courses at LMS Defense and will be offering them again in 2013. The Rimfire Carbine course is designed to give you drills and training methodologies to take advantage of the rimfire's cost effectiveness and to supplant the training that you are doing with the centerfire carbine. We hope to be getting our 2013 schedule posted in the next couple of weeks.

[BlairB]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Ultimately I will likely just stick to my 5.56 AR most of the time but I am will bring my light weight .22 AR, just in case.

This may be a reason to build the 7.62 upper I was thinking about too...

Or bring your 5.56 upper and just say pew-pew instead of pulling the trigger.

I think we have a winner!

[ramathorn]

This may be a reason to build the 7.62 upper I was thinking about too...

Now you're talking! I've been thinking about one too. The special mags are the only drawback that i keep getting held up on.

[ginrai357]

IMHO. Any training is better than no training. If he/she can only afford to use rimfire, then who are we to judge unless you want to donate $175 worth of 556 ammo for the carbine.

[BlairB]

I do a lot of my personal training at home (yes I have a range at home) with my .22 uppers when I am focusing on weapons handling, or turns, ready ups, etc. It is a great way to get a short and cost effective training session in. Whenever I do this I try to end the session with a few drills of 5.56/ .223 because the recoil impulse is different. It is important that you set up your rimfire the same way as your centerfire so that there is as much consistency as possible when running them.

I see a few folks coming through classes that will switch back and forth between rimfire and full power depending upon the drills and I have seen a number of students successfully run a rimfire in carbine courses where most everyone else was shooting centerfire weapons. I would encourage you to have a solid foundation in using the carbine in its centerfire configuration first.

We have taught a number of Rimfire Carbine Courses at LMS Defense and will be offering them again in 2013. The Rimfire Carbine course is designed to give you drills and training methodologies to take advantage of the rimfire's cost effectiveness and to supplant the training that you are doing with the centerfire carbine. We hope to be getting our 2013 schedule posted in the next couple of weeks.

Somehow I missed this response at first.

I agree on having a solid foundation using centerfire and then using the rimfire to supplement the training, when appropriate. I like the idea of training that will take advantage of what rimfire can do, I will keep an eye out for your 2013 schedule!

IMHO. Any training is better than no training. If he/she can only afford to use rimfire, then who are we to judge unless you want to donate $175 worth of 556 ammo for the carbine.

I agree just figure if I can save money here and there it will just allow me to do more training. Maybe if I save some money on ammo during the next carbine course I was looking at, I can sign up for a pistol course with the extra cash.

I am also always accepting ammo donations

[Lugiahua]

Also, Tactical Training Associates in San Jose allows .22 in most of their courses, as long as it's .22 version/conversion from a full caliber weapon.

[SuperSet]

I agree with The Virus, especially if you haven't mastered recoil control and have a lingering flinch. .22lr is awesome once you get past those and want to practice regularly though.
Also, don't underestimate the value of dry fire.